Troubled

OK, it is only fair to warn you all  . . . I AM depressed and I seriously have the ***** - so don't say you weren't warned.

Frankly I'm both appalled and disappointed by the current tidal wave of hatred that is being addressed towards Refusers. . . . And before any of you (Redzcar, are you listening?) tell me I don't understand the pain of being Refused, may I say BULL ****!!!  I lived for 13 years without a kiss.  Without a touch, let alone anything that remotely resembled SEX.  So don't anyone lay any CRAP on me about not understanding or feeling the pain.

OK, we all HATE being Refused - I get it.  None of us wants to offer Refusers any excuses or support (overt or otherwise) for their refusing.  I get that too.   Believe it or not, I agree with that.

But this attitude of hatred, demonising, refusal to accept any posts that address the possible cause/s of refusing (see the OCD post) and out-and-out rejection of anything and everything to do with Refusers is reaching totally out of control and ridiculous proportions in my opinion.

Yeah -  you don't have to agree with me.  I don't agree with those of you who think like this.   I've tried to be polite, reasonable and rational - and now it is my turn to rave and rant . . .

So what is it you want from ILIASM?  A forum where all anyone does is bemoan their sexless state and abuse those who cause this problem?  Do you REALLY get comfort from being part of such a self absorbed, self righteous and insufferable group. . . !??

Do you really believe (as I've surmised from what I've read here over the past few days) that:

All refusers are evil

All refusers deliberately set out to not only deceive and inflict pain on their spouses - but actually come onto this Forum to hone their skills?  (Paranoia, anyone . . .?)

No Refuser loves his or her spouse.

All refusers are sub-human in that they don't "fit" the "normal" human pattern of wanting sex.  I love the statistic that says that 99.9% of "normal" people want sex, even though there are (verifiable) statistics that suggest as many as 30-40% of marriasges are sexless.   Whatever happened to intellectual honesty?

If someone is not like you or me, they deserve to be reviled, loathed and given no support.

That "everyone" here wants to reject all Refusers and oust them from this forum because ONLY the Refused have a "right" to be here.

There's a lot more in this vein, but I'm too heart sick to go on with this drivel.

Can anyone explain to me why so many people on this forum still remain with their EVIL DESPICABLE CRUEL sexless spouses - if they are in fact all of these things and embody every possible vile aspect of humanity?   Is it because you are truly masochistic or are you so ground down that you cannot  live without  this DEVIL INCARNATE . . . ? 

Or is it that YOUR Refuser is NOT "all of the above"?  Something like "Some of my best friends are . . . "!

I have now effectively PISSED OFF most of my EP friends and ALL of my EP enemies!! And do you know what?  I don't give a flying ****!  If you cannot show any humanity to others I don't want to know you.

enna30 enna30
56-60, F
13 Responses Feb 21, 2010

This is not a contest folks. Refusers are not pure evil. They are people who are different in what satisfies them. My ex-to-be is not an evil person. He is who he is. I cannot change him. The only person I can change is me. Recognizing this fact frees me. If I harbor hate in my heart for another human being, the one person most affected by this is me. I might hate a person's actions but I can still love them as a human being.

"If" we really thought of our Refuser as the devil incarnated ... then we wouldn't be so upset by their refusing ... we would just be able to detach with no emotional baggage and move on. I believe that the love that brought us together ... is the reason we hate when they cause us such grief ... Love and Hate .. there is a very thin line between the two ... <br />
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After spending most of my life feeling sad and rejected, I realized through therapy and soul searching, that my happiness is not my refusers responsibility... it is mine.<br />
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When a person doesn't want to be intimate ... there is nothing between heaven and earth that will change that fact. Sometimes things just are what they are ... Now I am the refuser ... does that make me mean and evil? That makes me realize that there is more to relationships than meets the eye ... It isn't just sex that we want ... it's a whole lot more ... <br />
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There seems to be a movement here on ILIASM .. for "**** stirrers" to spice up their stories by topping each other ... and their situations ... This is real life ... real people .. just because we can't reach out and touch the person writing the stories and commenting, doesn't mean that we are all cardboard people. There are so many people here that are honest, sincere and appreciative of the ILIASM Experience.... <br />
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We vent here, we do not judge here .. and hopefully we bring out the best in each other here.<br />
Strive for happiness and it will follow.

The kindness, generosity of spirit and thoughtful responses to this story have moved me and touched me to my core. I think anytime opinions are polarised, it tends to entrench each side in its own position. The graciousness of those of you who have replied here has helped me to modify my own viewpoint and to recognise more clearly the impetus for those whose opinions differ from mine.<br />
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In contemplating my own position, it has occurred to me that there is probably something more personal involved here than just my long held belief in the importance of tolerance of those who are different. ( And that is another story in itself!)<br />
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Since leaving my husband and our sexless marriage I have endeavoured to keep our relationship one of caring, respect, friendship and mutual affection. To his credit, he has met me half way in this. I DO realise this isn't possible (or even desirable) for all ex-spouses, but for us it is the right thing.<br />
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But this has not come without a lot of work on both our parts - on my part it has required constant effort to deal with the negative emotions and distress that a long term sexless marriage has evoked in me. (Thank you, counselling!!)<br />
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Reading the posts about Refusers that were dismissive of them seemed to somehow negate my efforts and even, in some odd way, to ridicule my efforts. I KNOW this was not the purpose of these posts and I didn't even recognise this aspect of my own response until I had thought long and hard about my own motivations.<br />
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Reading the responses here has once again reminded me of how thoughtful, caring and forgiving are the "Refused"! It is this integrity that sets the Refused apart from the Refusers in many cases, I think. Despite the pain and the hurt and the rejection that is felt, the Refused keep trying to make things better - for themselves AND for their marriages . . . . Would that Refusers could demonstrate similar commitment and compassion!

Dearest Enna, as I read the comments to your heartfelt story it becomes evident that even if not all are in complete agreement with you, all greatly love, respect, and deeply appreciate you. I include myself in this group. <br />
I read a lot of pain in your story, much as I have read much pain in the comments lashing out at posters. FoP explains this well. There have been refusers whose insights were highly valued and where respect between them and us was mutual-Mr. C is an example. The problem arises when a refuser comes on and sticks their fingers into open wounds by using the same justification as some of our refusing spouses. Some even have the temerity to judge the ways some of us have taken to help alleviate their pain, even resorting to name calling. Well, stick fingers in the wound too deeply and there will be lashing out-that is only natural, it is self protection.<br />
It hurts me to know that you are hurting, Enna, and I hope that the comments here will help you understand why there is some lashing out. It hope they will also show you how much you are valued and loved in this group.

Enna, You could never say anything that would cause you to lose my friendship or cause me to think that you are anything but a kind and loving woman. I am uncertain what this is about. I do remember a woman being on here for a time who was a refuser and she was soundly thrashed by many members. I did offer her what I thought was helpful advice in private PMs but she ignored me totally so I gave up. I do not think she is a member anymore. <br />
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It is not only the refusers that have been attacked lately here. Some members are afraid to add new people to their circle because they have been the victims of vile hurtful comments. I have been bombarded with fan requests lately from people that are into things that I cannot agree with. I shared this with my good friend that you know well and he told me that this is just a cycle and will even out eventually. <br />
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Please members, can we agree that this is a place where we can seek advice and hopefully share meaningful and helpful dialogue? The fact that our wonderful friend is so upset is a wake up call. Enna has always been the voice of reason. She spends so much time giving thoughtful meaningful advice to each one of us. Not all of us have to agree with other members but we are human beings. At our core most of us want acceptance and appreciation for our efforts in trying to seek help and advice. Some stories in this group bring up very painful memories. Open up wounds that are in the process of healing. Please remember when we were in the same situations as those seeking advice and support. Peace to all who are in pain and understanding to those who are seeking help.D.

enna,<br />
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It is your great sense of fairness and strength of principles for your fellow human beings of any race, religion, colour or creed which drives you to write with such selfless vehemence and despair. You are a true warrior who is willing to corageously fight to the end against human injustice regardless of the consequences or danger to yourself.<br />
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Anne after your formidable, epoch making, self sacrificing post I am sure that your EP friends will love, cherish and respect you even more. I do not believe that someone with your passion for fair play could ever have any enemies and feel that even if some people do not actually wholeheartedly agree with all of your sentiments they could not fail to admire your passionately held beliefs that everybody deserves a fair hearing and should not be shouted down will such maliceous hatred. <br />
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Anne I sincerely hope that we can all look into our own hearts and try to treat other people with the respect and dignity with which we would like to be treated ourselves. Anne as one of the most respected and influencial posters on EP your multitude of friends and admirers will never desert you.

Civility is good and I think we all have an obligation to maintain it. All of us are hurting enough in one way or another; we don't need more sh*t when we come here. That being said, I also really appreciate the wry humor and the direct, unvarnished opinions I get from all of you. As someone who is pretty new here, I remember how scary it was to post for the first time and how much it helped me to have people respond, some more forcefully than others. Someone who was downright insulting in their first senence to me has become a trusted confidant whose opinion I respect. <br />
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My default is definitely 'nice' and when I don't have anything nice to say, I tend to not say anything at all; itls a waste of my time. If someone launces the first blow, though, I will throw back if it's personal...that hasn't happened yet.<br />
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There is one related thing I see that is bothering me. If someone says their spouse/so/whoever in RL is threatening to commit suicide, none of us should be saying "they're not going to do it" or "they're just trying to get your attention". Unless we've met the person in question and are qualified to do a full lethality assessment, it's irresponsible to hazard a guess on that, regardless of whether our very uninformed opinions are right or not. I think it's ok to speak in generalities about tendencies is fine, but to apply an opinion to a specific individual after reading a paragraph or two is wrong. This is serious because it's people's lives and consciences we're talking about! We should encourage people to get the help of mental health specialists in their area and to know the # of a local crisis service agency, should they need it.<br />
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Thanks...that's been on my mind and IMO is related to how we are treating posters...

I believe it was Robby Burns... correct me if I'm wrong - who said something like - what a wonderous world it would be, if we could see oursel'es as others see us...<br />
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...I think, in a sexless marriage, where there is usually, at least at first, pain on both sides... and often, the sexlessness is just a symptom of some other issue... or simply "miss matched" sex drives... and sometimes fairly deliberate "all's fair in love and war" pre-planned trickery to get someone to marry, have children, and have little or no sex... (and before anyone starts gender bashing - some men do this too)... eventually that pain turns into resentment on the side of the refused, and defensiveness on the side of the refuser... and so the circle of misery begins to revolve...<br />
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When we came here, each of us... refused and refuser... we were looking for answers... but... and it's a pretty big BUT... the questions are different...<br />
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It's the questions that matter... if the questions are honest and real... everyone deserves to have a reasonable response... and if the asker is in pain... they deserve support and caring...<br />
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Not all of us are capable of these reasonable, supportive and caring responses all the time, because of our own pain. <br />
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LadyA is right, since Christmas a lot of us who had been making the move toward divorce were hit by the Christmas holidays... and all the high emotions of that time in the midst of divorce - utter agony!! ...and then good ol' Valentines Day... and another round of high emotions and intense agony... buried by some, and screaming out from others.<br />
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Now that those two highly stressful holidays are past, we need to rethink our responses to new comers... they don't come here to be told in the first comment they receive to "get the hell out of that sick marriage now!!" They come here with questions... and in extreme need of support and understanding. And, most of all, they come here needing to know that they are not alone, and they are not broken.<br />
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We need to give them a little time to get past that... then start encouraging them, based on where they are emotionally and finacially... to make a move of some sort... and get back to the "big three" decisions: stay and deal with it; stay and have an affair; or, leave...<br />
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...and we need to give reasons for our opinions on each...<br />
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To announce out of hand that this group is about getting the hell out, oh, and by the way, your spouse is an abusive *******... well, they will probably come to that conclusion once they've been here a while... but let's give them that time...<br />
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All of us, me included, need to go back and check out our responses to new comers, and think how it would have felt to have been met with that when we first arrived. Would we have posted any of our fears... talked about how we cared for our refusing spouses... probably not. And, to get to where I am today, I really needed to talk all that out... often! ...and I did, and always received support and caring responses... with only the occasional exception.<br />
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As for refusers that post here... if they have honest questions, and really want to try to find a way to "fix" things.. fine. But, for me, right now... I can't read posts from refusers... it just hurts too much. I try very hard not to get into the fray, and usually don't... But, if they say something that hits a nerve... well, look out!!<br />
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I love you Anne... and you can blow off steam any time you like!! You are absolutely right! This forum is no place for hatred... not a place to paint all with the same brush. Yes, your comments are harsh and hit hard, but that's what we need sometimes - to make us take a hard look at ourselves. As always, you are the voice of reason... even when you do it at the top of your lungs.<br />
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FoP

Enna, this upsets you greatly I know. <br />
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But this is an open forum and I feel that I am allowed to say what I feel. Sometimes that can mean I will be fighting fire with fire.<br />
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The refusing posters that get the flames are the ones who post to deliberately antagonise, they are not evil, but some of their views e.g that their spouse has no feelings are despicable - everyone has feelings! I have noticed that they always start the name-calling / hostility here, and when they get it back they start bleating oh this group is so defensive etc. etc. Yes, I should probably ignore them, but I don't want to. They ask, I answer.<br />
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And they are the only ones who tend to get grief here, plenty of refusers have posted here who have not had any flack because they are not being antagonistic or obnoxious. Or start lecturing like they know the answer to it all.<br />
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I love this group the way it is.

Enna, this was a brave post on your part. Thank you for your firm compassion in order to keep the ILIASM forum a learning place for all.

Enna, I've never seen this side of you! <br />
I said this in response to someone else who posted about refusers not being welcome here... Technically, refusers are living in sexless marriages too. So, who are we to say they have no place in this group? Personally, I think it's important to hear from the otherside. We don't have to agree with them or frankly, we don't have to waste time reading their posts if they bother us. I think everyone is entitled to say what's on their mind. And yes, Enna, I agree it should be done civilly. Hwever,we all know this is an emotionally charged subject.

Wow! I don't come here very often - seems like I have visited at a time when feelings are running high. Is there any reason for not including Refusers in the forum? I'm not sure what to think.

Enna, what a "good morning" for those of us in the american time zones! <br />
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Hey guys, I really don't think things are as black-and-white as some of us are making it out to be. There are infinite shades of grey. <br />
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Like Enna, I went 12 years without any sexual contact or even affection from my ex. (This was after 15 happy, "normal" years of marriage, WITH sex and affection.) There was never any reasonable explanation for the rather abrupt change, never any sincere attempt on his part to "work on" the situation, just a series of bizarre excuses. <br />
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And yet, he was (and is) a good, kind, generous, sober, hard-working, law-abiding citizen. He is a responsible professional. He treats his friends and family well. He volunteers in the community. He is sensitive, honest and sharing ... except on this subject. <br />
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For those who show up here suggesting music and candles, or going dancing - a pox on you. It's all been tried at least twice by all of us. Spend a couple weeks reading here before you post. <br />
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I do have a problem with refusers posting here who are only trying to justify their position ... go create your own group of "I refuse my spouse - and I'm proud of it". And make sure you direct your friends, family and co-workers to your posts ... oh, maybe you're not so proud of it?<br />
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Refusers who realize that the problem is destroying their marriage and family, who are genuinely troubled and trying to understand sort through the issues ...I think those very few people can offer some valuable insights and are worthy of support. <br />
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PS: Redzcar, from your other post - I LOVE chest hair. : )