The Un-Invited

So many people have ventured to our shores to find another life.  Most came here with a ticket, one that they worked and sacrificed for.  They didn't sneak in uninvited.

To the Uninvited:

This is my country, it is my home.  You came here without permission, breaking in like a thieves.  You came here and took jobs, stole identities, evaded taxes and now you want me and millions of law abiding Americans to say that is OK.  We are not willing to do that.  If someone broke into your home, what would you do?  Invite them to stay? You would chase them out with whatever means were at your disposal. 

You have broken into my home!  You have violated me and all Americans by stealing what must be earned. You have no rights here!  You protest our laws like you are citizens, but you are not!!  You are not entitled to anything!  There is only one thing for all of you to do - go home and earn your right to be here like millions of others who came here legally.  

Forgive my rant, but I am tired of people telling me that what my family and I have worked so hard for should just be given to them without sacrifice or consequence! 

USA, USA, USA!!!



MaxV MaxV
56-60, M
25 Responses Aug 3, 2010

Wow! I was glued to this battle of the minds.<br />
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Anything illegal is still illegal and it is not right to break-in and ignore the law but we cannot persecute or cast stones to those who cross borders to find greener pastures. They have their reasons and the consequence to battle with.

@mr4553<br />
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You will notice that my original post says nothing about any particular ethnic group or religious group or for that matter any particular country. <br />
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Sure, we can improve our immigration laws and rules but the law is still the law. As we are a nation of laws, it is our responsibility to live by those laws but we also have a greater responsibility to speak out to change those laws to improve them. <br />
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But in the end, the fact is that when you steal, you do not steal a little bit, it is theft no matter how little or how much you take. In this case the thieves, no matter what country they are from have broken the law. I simply advocate enforcing our current laws and strengthening our borders. After we seal our borders and gain control of the flow of illegal immigrants, we can focus on immigration reform.

Of course there needs to be respect of laws however what I am saying is that we need to make sure our laws make sense and are fair.<br />
No one talks of the illegal Irish immigrants in New England that go on currently. And we wouldn't have illegal immigrants if the laws would punish those who higher them.<br />
They are also many who come into the country for the same reasons our four fathers did- to escape homeland pursecution- like with many Iranian immigrants.<br />
But because Mexican illegals look different and speak a different language our laws forbid them<br />
So criminal drug dealers and human traffic profiters fill the void left by the outdated laws and crime increases and fear increases and many such as yourselves use that fear to justify prejudices.<br />
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Instead of talking and changing the laws to stop criminal behavior you encourage it with hardline simplicity. <br />
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Because the immigrant is Mexican- you look at the Mexican criminals as the reason to keep them out<br />
Because the immigrant is Iranian- you look at the Terrorist Iranian government as the reason to keep them out.<br />
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All I am saying is that using twisted logical so you can have simple answer is stupid<br />
We need to make tough and unpopular political decisions to REALLY fix the problem, but no one is willing at this point.

When one's first act in entering a country is to break its laws, it shows a lack of respect and honor. How arrogant is it for one to assume they may live in any country they wish? In MR and A's positions, one should be able to just move anywhere and reside where they wish. Why have countries or borders then? There could be one big world and no government; we'll all just be nomads! I'll go live in Bordeaux, France on a chateau because I need more incredible red wine. I have a house with four bedrooms; two of us live there. Should I let more people move in because I have room?

@mr4553<br />
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Yes, this is my house, your house and over 300 millions others. That said, we have an obligation to defend it and nurture it. Simply put, I cannot advocate for any one who has crossed our borders uninvited. I do not care where people come from, but they must use the front door, pass in hand. If they want asylum, they can ask for it, but do not sneak in here uninvited. Too many of us have fought and died for the privilege to live here. Uninvited guests are also suspect for communicable diseases. With open borders this remains unchecked. Legal immigration - all for it 100%. Illegal immigration - 100% completely against it - no amnesty in any shape or form.

Max<br />
You talk about this country as if it were YOUR house and only YOUR house. But it isn't. It is a house for over 250 million people, it is OUR house.<br />
More likely it is our park and we all have the responsibility to keep it safe. Forgetting why the park was put here doesn't help and historically speaking not letting people in will kill this country faster than having open borders.<br />
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You seem to be like many of my fellow Americans, you are afraid of change and afraid to learn something new.<br />
Life changes buddy and it isn't easy but it is necessary and almost always turns out for the better. We Americans need to stop feeling ENTITLED and need to start thinking about what is really needed.

if you are of European decent, your forefathers also came here un-invited.

Advocatus,<br />
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Specious? I think not! <br />
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It is apparent that your perspective is purely academic. Are you a law student or intern? If so, it explains your arguments, which seem to have no basis in real experience. I assume from your non-response regarding health care premiums that you do not pay your own premiums, correct? <br />
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As far as laws are concerned I can disagree or agree with any law. However, as a law abiding citizen, I will obey and respect the laws of my country no matter how much I may disagree with them. Disagreement is one thing, violation is another. It is my responsibility as it is yours to argue for change. My argument is in support of existing laws to enforce border security and immigration and improvement of those laws once our borders are secured. <br />
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You accuse me of not liking illegal immigrants - but it is not a matter of like or dislike. I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean I dislike you! If these same people applied for residency in our country and our country agreed that they met the criteria I would welcome them with open arms as this country welcomed my grandparents. In my own family, siblings and cousins have married foreign nationals. In some cases they were not residents of the US. In order to live in the US they applied for residency. Not hard to do. Yes, it takes time, costs money but it takes dedication. These people really wanted to be here, and they wanted to live their lives in the open and free the way you and I do, not behind a fake SS# or name. <br />
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If you are a student, then use some logic to puzzle this out. Remember, that in this great land we have the opportunity to voice our opinions, our dissent and our support. This is a hot button topic of which we are on opposite sides. The examples I portrayed in my previous post are examples of what is happening. When we ignore the rule of law we are destined to succumb to our own weaknesses. The rule of law is what have made this country great!

I don't dispute that illegal immigrants have caused issues, as have US citizens. Your appeal to majority sentiment is specious; popular majorities in the past endorsed such repugnant phenomena as slavery and segregation. That did not justify it then. I cite the administrations as a token of the realization by economists that immigrants, even if illegal, are worth more to the country as they are, than as deported. <br />
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You seem to oscillate between two different arguments. <br />
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1). It's illegal. They are disrespecting our laws. "The US is a land of laws". <br />
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I have already referred you to prior cases in which unjust laws were overturned, and I'm afraid you don't have the unique right to decide which laws (slavery, segregation) you think should be disobeyed, and which ones (immigration), you think should be respected. There may be an emotional difference in your mind, but the logical form is much the same.<br />
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2). Immigrants cause economic damage.<br />
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That is simply not true. While I am perfectly willing to grant that there are individual cases----even many individual cases----in which the presence of a specific illegal immigrant has caused damage to a specific US citizen (I myself had my car totaled four years ago; I live in Arizona, when I'm not in DC), in aggregate, the economics simply do establish that illegal immigrants contribute more to the US economy than they take out. I can easily prove that. You presumably consider your experiences to trump the journals of econonomics and statistical analyses; they do not. <br />
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I also agree that the immigration system is ludicrously broken. But citing individual instances of felonious immigrants does not somehow indict all immigrants without papers as a logical class.<br />
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All you have proved is that you yourself dislike illegal immigrants, because of a combination of personal experiences and vicarious ones, and not that they are either detrimental to the US economy (they're not), nor somehow uniquely representative of illegitimate lawbreaking (as opposed to slavery, etc.).

Advocatus,<br />
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I guess you decided to respond anyway after saying you would not. The question here is not legal immigration. Nobody including myself is against legal immigration, allowing guest workers, etc... It is not whether I agree or disagree about slavery or segregation - I believe that we have an illegal immigration problem. I welcome all those who wish to make application and are invited to join us, but not those who find it necessary to sneak across our borders, they are not welcome. You keep saying that both Republican and Democratic administrations have accepted the status quo on immigration. So what! A great majority of US CITIZENS do not! Arizona and Virginia are prime examples. Many other states have joined together to resolve these issues.<br />
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Since we became a nation, we have not been perfect. We have corrected course many times. Slavery and segregation are two fine examples of what this country has done to correct past mistakes and be fair to all. Hundreds of thousands died in a civil war to do just that! Illegal immigration is a pre-meditated act carried out by individuals who do not have permission to enter the US. Many are drug smugglers, slave traders, felons and terrorists. Many more are not, but they have no excuse, and deserve no special exceptions.<br />
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Before you continue pontificating to me, please take the time to walk in my shoes. When you lose a job because it was given to an illegal or you have an auto accident with an uninsured illegal you may see things differently. The next time you pay your health insurance (do you pay your own insurance?) multiply the premium by 20% That 20% is the amount that covers uninsured - legal and illegal. Considering that there are 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants in this country (fed gov estimates) and a total of approx. 40 million uninsured (fed estimates) it looks like a third to almost half of the uninsured in our country are illegal immigrants. You do the math. There are other examples, but the economics are clear. When a person visits our country or comes here to be a resident, they must prove that they have been vaccinated against smallpox, TB, etc... Every person who crosses our border without the benefit of an invitation is potentially carrying a communicable disease. Communicable disease is a real problem, but there are millions of unaccounted for immigrants in our country without those vaccinations. Remember, they may be sharing a bus with you or standing on line next to you in the 7-11 or K-Mart. <br />
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BTW - have you heard about the nun that was killed in Va a few days ago? The car she was riding in was struck by a drunk driver. The driver happened to be an illegal immigrant that had previous DUI offenses and was in the process of being deported. In the hands of the Federal Gov - he had been released on his own recognizance awaiting deportation, only to commit another crime. While waiting to be deported, he manged to kill someone! Our federal government continues to fail in its responsibility to protect and defend our borders and its citizens. The AZ rancher murdered a few months earlier is another example. This is not the immigration we need or want.

I'm afraid you don't have the unique right to decide which laws are "awful" and "horrible" and "gross injustices". Shall I quote your own arguments against you? You say that the US is a "land of laws", and that "(any) argument... is moot unless... the law has not been broken".<br />
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Now you reverse and decide that you get to decide which laws (segregation, slavery, British, etc.) are worthy of being broken. If you believe, as you've spent several posts doing, that abiding by the law is the final arbiter, then bite the bullet and tell me that you would have defended slavery and segregation. Otherwise, stop pretending that there's any semblance of logic or consistency to your arguments. You don't like illegal immigrants, and that's your prerogative, but claiming that their mere illegality is a logically valid reason while simultaneously maintaining that you would have opposed the laws endorsing slavery and segregation is supremely illogical.<br />
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I'm not trying to impress you. You say I need to convince you. I don't. You are free to set the terms of what will or will not convince you; you are not free to set the terms of what constitutes a valid argument. The valid argument in favor of (illegal) immigration has been accepted by every administration, Republican or Democratic, because of the moral and economic arguments in support, and will continue to be in the future. <br />
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I also remind you again, of the pilgrims, who rang nobody's bell, but who pitched up unannounced, and "illegally".

We are not talking about segregation (an awful and horrible thing). Also, we are not talking about slavery (a gross injustice), we are talking about illegal immigration.<br />
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I refuse to go off topic and compare apples to oranges. If you think that convincing Bush and Obama is going to impress me, you are way off course. I thought Reagan was a great president, but didn't agree with his amnesty of illegal immigrants. What impresses me are all the people I know who defend this country and all the people I talk to. Hard working, law abiding residents and citizens from all walks of life and cultures. They or their ancestors came here through the front door after ringing the bell.

I don't need to convince you. My arguments are the same arguments that convinced both the Bush and Obama administrations...

So you supported segregation? And would have supported slavery? And oppose the Declaration of Independence?

Dear Advocatus,<br />
<br />
What is it that you do not understand about the law? Are you not a law abiding citizen? Have you had a good look at the Constitution of our great country? It is not vitriol, it is irrefutable fact. There is no dislike for immigrants, legal or otherwise. <br />
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Pure and simple, my argument is the law of our land. Everything argument you make is moot unless you can convince me that the law has not been broken.<br />
<br />
Max

Reading your replies, I notice you've not even been reading what I'm writing. I'm not going to bother to respond, unless you actually read what I've written and categorically refute it.

Your argument is a tissue of the words "sacrifice", "unemployment", and "laws", without any actual cogency. Simply repeating that you dislike illegal immigrants has no effect on their residency; believing that they should not be here does not itself imply that they should not, in truth, be here. <br />
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I understand your opinion and your vitriol, but also the absolute lack of coherence in your argument.

As I remarked, I don't know why it thinks that. I am not.<br />
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My worldly experience? Relating to matters at hand, I've spent enough time in economics, and in the field. I see you're from Washington. I used to work for Maria Cantwell (someone whom you presumably dislike). I've been a caseworker (dealing with such issues everyday), and a policy advisor, among other things. <br />
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Cannot fathom the sacrifices? I can. Please stop believing I'm eighteen, and please stop assuming that I know nothing of "sacrifice", or that "sacrifice" is somehow germane to the argument.<br />
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I will only repeat once more: high unemployment is a function of a demand slump, and has nothing to do with immigration, legal or otherwise. I know you like ignoring economics, but that's simply the case. I am willing to show you the studies. You seem to prefer your rhetoric. <br />
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Healthcare costs inflated? Yes, I'll grant that there's a minor effect, but it's negligible compared to many other issues. You want my "worldly experience"? I spent the last year on Capitol Hill working on healthcare legislation. While I disagreed with much of it, the amendments on which I worked focused around measure to cut costs. I can break down for you the rising cost of healthcare in the US. Illegals have little to do with it. Do you care about the logic? or about your opinions. <br />
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I do not wish to ignore laws; please do not misrepresent me. I am simply saying that there do and have existed laws which were unjust, and which were repeatedly broken. <br />
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Shall I assume that you would have been a strong supporter of slavery?<br />
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Were you a strong supporter of segregation? <br />
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We cannot ignore the illegal immigration issues we have today. We need to secure the borders, and provide a way to legalize the existing population, just as Lincoln could not ignore slavery, but had to subdue the Confederacy and emancipate them (another "illegal" action), and as the revolutionaries revolted against Britain, and so on, and so on. <br />
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I notice once again that you're incapable of addressing my points, beyond just repeating what you would like to be true.

Advocatus,<br />
<br />
Your profile reveals that you are 18-21 years old. Please fill me in on your worldly experience. You cannot fathom the sacrifices made by my family and millions of others to build this country. We are all in favor of immigration, but it needs to be legal. We are suffering higher unemployment, in part due to illegal immigration. Our health care costs are inflated in part in part due to illegal immigration. How many more issues do you want me to cite?<br />
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The US is a land of laws. They were not written to be ignored. It is apparent that you wish to ignore them or at the very least advocate that we should turn our heads and ignore the illegal immigration issues confronting us today. There isn't much more to say other than if an illegal immigrant wants to truly be a US resident then they need to do it the way the law provides. Millions of immigrants began doing so over one hundred years ago and have continued doing so ever since. If nothing else, it is easier to do so today, but still takes a long time. It is a privilege to live in this country, not the right of anybody who chooses to cross our borders!

Ah, I see, it thinks I'm between 18 and 21. I'm not sure why. Perhaps I clicked something while signing up. Ignore that.

I don't believe everything I see on Wikipedia. I linked to an article which provides a clear layman's introduction of an established economic understanding. Would you prefer a link to an economic journal?<br />
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This is a land of laws, but there have been numerous times where the laws were broken for the betterment of the country. I have cited numerous examples. You have addressed none.<br />
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Unemployment? Again, you fail to understand elementary economics. Please reread the wikipedia article. If you would prefer a peer-reviewed source in an economics journal, I'll supply it. If the concept escapes you, I'll try and explain it. <br />
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Once again: the way in which the aggregate labor market functions means that people do not "take" jobs that other people could have had. In an economy running at prime, the number of jobs available will reflect the number of people seeking work. We are not running at prime, but that has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. <br />
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In more intuitive terms, when illegal immigrants arrive, they bring the jobs with them.<br />
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I know that you'd like the economic truth to reflect what you're saying, so you'd be right, but that's simply not how an economy actually works. The amount of jobs available is not fixed. That is simply the case. The evidence and theory is on my side. <br />
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Yes, you are wrong. I have no idea what you think my age is, but I have. On matters similar to this, even. That being said, I can't see how it would matter, even if I hadn't. <br />
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Pity party? Hardly. Did you even read what I wrote? You have worked your way up, etc., and so too have illegal immigrants. Nothing was "handed" to them. You throw around words without any logic whatsoever. They have sacrificed. You have sacrificed. Sacrifice is part of life. None of that has anything to do with anything.<br />
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The only point you ultimately make, as you seem to agree, is that you oppose them because they're illegal. But I note you've ignored all the other instances of lawbreaking I cited. <br />
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Please read my former post and address each point in turn, as opposed to glibly assuming that your opinions somehow trump history and economics.

Advocatus,<br />
<br />
You are obviously an intelligent person, but do not believe everything you see on Wikipedia. <br />
<br />
Yes, it is difficult to gain entry into the US but it is possible nonetheless. Illegal immigrants opted to come here through the back door, their choice not yours or mine, theirs! This is a land of laws and there are consequences for breaking the law. Many people have lived and died to give you the privilege of living freely in this great country.<br />
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Unemployment - There are many illegals here taking down 40 to 50k annually performing jobs that would otherwise be held by legal residents and citizens. Albeit some jobs are not as attractive as others, but they are still jobs. When is the last time you had to feed a family, or pay rent? Your age reveals that you have probably never had to do either. Am I wrong? <br />
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Please spare me the pity party about how hard illegal immigrants work. My grandparents and my parents performed hard labor all their lives, and lived through the depression. I have raised a family, been unemployed, discriminated against because of my heritage, worked my way up. But it wasn't because it was handed to me, it was earned and I sacrificed for it. <br />
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Yes, illegal means illegal! The stamp of law as you put it means everything!

Me? Natural-born, to a family of citizens. My forefathers, too, immigrated legally. But that was an option available to them. Most illegal immigrants would prefer to be here legally, but that is not an option for them. <br />
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They broke in like thieves? Nice metaphor, but it makes little sense in the real world. Very few of them forced open windows, or kicked down doors. Most of them were smuggled in----a process which involved intense danger to themselves, and to few other people. Whereas breaking-in like a thief implies material damage to someone else's property. While I don't doubt that there have been immigrants who have caused damage by immigrating, that's not true of most of them.<br />
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Again, I ask you about the pilgrims----the 'original' immigrants. I'm sure you're willing to give them a free pass, because it was such a long time ago, or because you don't care much for the rights of the indigenous populations. I don't care much either, because I look at what they gave to come, and what they made of their lives having arrived.<br />
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EVERYTHING you say about your grandparents is true of most illegal immigrants. They too have suffered many indignities----more than your grandparents, I'd wager, by virtue of their status as almost subhuman. They have not sacrificed 'quite a bit', but everything they have. <br />
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Illegal immigrants, too, work at just about anything needed to do to raise their families. Your own comments are proof enough of that. <br />
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The only difference between your grandparents and a modern illegal immigrant is that one has the stamp of the law of the time, and one does not. Your issue surely can't be that the human contributions and struggles of modern illegals are somehow lesser than those of your grandparents----only that what they are doing is unlawful.<br />
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I'm assuming you lived before the era of civil rights. Did you support segregation at the time? Did MLK and anyone else who urged civil disobedience not "respect this land"?<br />
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Rewind to slavery. I daresay you would have supported the round-up of runaway slaves, inasmuch as what they were doing was decidedly illegal. <br />
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Again, the only point you actually have to differentiate between illegal immigrants and legal ones is that the illegal ones are illegal. Stop trying to convince me through rhetoric that there's any other kind of difference, and explain why the lawbreaking of an illegal immigrant is somehow 'different' to the act of revolution that created the US, or the arrival of the pilgrims, or civil disobedience, or abolitionists who freed slaves, etc. etc. <br />
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Speaking of economics? Happily, because that's what matters.<br />
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Why do we have a 10% unemployment rate? Because we are presently in the middle of an economic slump caused by a deficit in demand. The unemployment figures have nothing to do with illegal immigrants: during the boom years before the bust, illegal immigrants were equally present, and contributing to the economy. <br />
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Adding persons to an economy does not increase unemployment, because the amount of jobs available is not fixed. As I said, the labor market is not a zero-sum game. The more people you add, in general, the more wealth is created. This is why the population growth of the world has not resulted in each new child being jobless. Our present economic crisis is a function of illiquidity in capital markets, and the resultant unwillingness and inability of people to consume, and therefore revive the economy. <br />
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The workers in Louisiana were replaced by illegal laborers because the illegal laborers were willing to work for less. If that was a violation of minimum wage laws, that was an issue for the local executive; if the workers were merely undercut, then the price they wanted for their labor was above the market's clearing price. <br />
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Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy before continuing.<br />
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Shall I show you the journal articles? the statistical analyses? the proofs? or do you prefer your own rhetoric to the actual truth of how an economy functions?

Advocatus,<br />
<br />
How did you get here? Born here? Parents born here? Grandparents born here? If any of these is true you and I are very fortunate, but our good fortune is not an excuse for others to illegally cross our borders. <br />
<br />
They broke in like thieves. What they have they have stolen! They have no rights here. They pay taxes with stolen Social Security numbers. They pass themselves off as legitimate when they are not.<br />
<br />
Live and suffer? My grandparents came here through Ellis Island and started families. They suffered many indignities and sacrificed quite a bit. They sacrificed for their families. They worked at just about anything they needed to do to raise their families, but they did not sneak across our border! They respected this land!<br />
<br />
Speaking of economics - You can take all the numbers you want and add them up, but tell me why we have almost 10% unemployment in the USA today. Also, ask the workers in Louisiana who were replaced by lower paid workers after Katrina - yes, they were illegal immigrant day laborers!

Were the pilgrims invited by the Native Americans? Did they have permission?<br />
<br />
If you were born here, you never worked for citizenship. It became yours purely by right of birth. <br />
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Illegal immigrants pay sales taxes, social security deductions, payroll taxes, etc. What they often don't get is anything back, inasmuch as they are often too scared to get involved in anything related to the government. <br />
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How does one earn one's right to be here? By giving everything one has so that one's children might have a better life, in the land of hope and dreams? Or by being born, and believing that one's birthright "entitles" you to more than other human beings. Without sacrifice? Have you any idea of what a typical immigrant gives up in order to live in the United States? <br />
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Illegal immigrants do not "steal jobs". I could show you the citations in the journals of economics explaining that the labor market is not a zero-sum game, but I don't doubt that your innate frustration trumps actual economics. <br />
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Came here legally? The United States was created by an act of illegal rebellion against a tyrannical government. <br />
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Do you believe that most illegal immigrants sit around fattening themselves with the fruit of your labor? Do you genuinely understand anything of how people other than you live and suffer?