Stay For Now

mikebob. Could you elaborate on what generates this contempt from your wife and daughters? Is your wife poisening the well with them? I know it might be hard to share that, but it might help others that want to comment and share with you if you could give some details. I would stongly stay away from the ultimatums since I really feel they rarely ever work. They just have a great tendency to backfire on you. Sometimes confrontations can be good if they are done out of love and not to hammer the other person, and usually work best when you do them with an unbiased third party like a counselor. If things are questionable in the home, I would think if safer and better all around not to confront your spouse without the counselors help.

I read some of your other stories, and there is a whole lot going on there.

I'm not siding with either you or her, but if there is to be change, both of you have to commit to it.

There is a series on cable called "Shalom In The Home". Rabbi Shmuley Boteach (the host) is hands down the best family and relationship counselor alive. He is amazing.

Smuley has a few "Smuleyisims" on his website that directly apply to you.

1. Your marriage is not a facet of your life. It is your life. It is not a detail of your happiness, but its source and greatest blessing. Swallow your pride. Go back to the person to whom you once committed your life and exert the energy to make the marriage work again. By doing so you will have the satisfaction of knowing, not only that you never stopped climbing – that you never quit – but rather that you never climbed alone.

2. You cannot have healthy children without having a healthy family environment.

3. Ten percent of life is what happens; the other 90 percent is what you do about it.

The two of you are just existing together. Neither of you is making it work, yet neither of you is walking away. The only thing the two of you are doing together is raising your kids in an unhealthy environment. Children learn by example, and baby, both of you are perfect examples of what NOT to do. Something is not working, and you both are just waiting for it to blow up in your faces. What's the price of that? Your kids emotional health and every bad choice they will make and miserable relationship they will have in their life ... because that's all they know.

You get one chance to raise your children. Don't f... it up.

If I were you, I would seriously apply to be on the show. Here's the link:

http://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/shalom/apply.html

At the very least, get some of his books from the libary and both of you read them. Lay down the blame and do what needs doing.

Contempt might be too strong of a word… but I do not take it back. Yes my wife is “poisoning the well’ with them. Maybe a better way to say it would be that I am not treated with respect. I don’t mind sharing details; it helps me process things, and if I can help others a tiny bit that makes it worthwhile.

I’m trying to figure out how to convey how this plays out with my family. Word picture time. Imagine a group of kids, maybe Jr. High. A group of friends that know each other well. Then there is another guy, whom they consider un-cool, that wants to hang around them and be part of them. They cannot physically avoid him, since he is in their class. They might tolerate him, if they have to, but will make fun of him, make sarcastic responses to his comments, make it clear that he is not one of them. He might try to join in on their conversation, they will snicker and make comments about how he does not know what they are talking about. Even if he makes a sincere compliment to someone, it is not received graciously, maybe they roll their eyes, like he is too much of an idiot to know anything about that. Any chance they get, they say critical and unkind things to him and about him.

I am the un-cool kid. My wife is the leader of the group. My two oldest daughters are the followers that take it even further. My son and youngest daughter are like the kids that do not like what is happening, yet don’t speak up in my defense, and sometimes get caught up and join in. Maybe I’m exaggerating. But that is how I feel. I realize it is somewhat natural for teen girls to treat their dad this way, but because their mother takes the lead, it is 100 times worse.

My wife is a very strong personality. She will never back down. Ever. Maybe externally, but never on the inside. Ever. I cannot think of one single instance. She will very rarely admit that she is wrong. If I present her with irrefutable evidence, she will get angry that I am just trying to prove her wrong. (She does have an anger problem.)

She is very critical of pretty much everybody. Anytime anybody makes a decision, or does anything, that is different than how she would have, she is harshly critical of them. If the decision / action affects her or her children, look out. So school teachers, school administration, church leadership, youth leaders, neighbors, extended family, employers, etc. are in trouble. I am at the top of the list. She does not care whether the children are present or not. Many times it is an indirect slam. So the children (the oldest two girls, mainly) take their cues from her. It is really an issue of lack of respect.

When we began having disagreements on how to handle my son, she totally gave up and refused to give him any consequences. Just reams me for what he does. When we began to have disagreements on the oldest daughter, she told me to “keep out”. Often when I try to address an issue with the girls, my wife will defend them. She likes to make rules, but does not enforce them (i.e. bedtime). She wants me to enforce them, so she is not the bad guy (her words). When I do try to enforce them, she frequently takes their side and says give them a break, it is OK this time, etc. If I do not enforce them, she gets very upset and accuses me of undermining her. (Now that is classic projection, isn’t it?)

Another example: a couple of days ago, I was addressing an issue between the second and third girl (that my wife brought up and wanted me to address). As I was explaining that what she did was improper, my wife jumps in and says “You can’t really get on her about that, you do it too”. It doesn’t matter whether she was accurate or not; I was cut off at the knees.

We basically get along good as a family; but I would say typically at least once an hour, maybe twice, my wife will get a direct or indirect criticism / slam in.

On top of all this, the girls cling all over her and insist on walking beside her & sitting beside her. Whether going to the movies, out to eat, sitting in church, even riding in the family van, I never get to be next to her. If I gently try asking one of the girls to switch places with me, she gets angry and accuses me of causing problems.

TryingToHaveTheLifeIWant: Thanks. I appreciate the input and basically agree.

As far as ‘both of us working…” well she quit marriage counseling last summer. Our counselor told me she is not ready to deal with her issues. (I continue to go.) One of her friends told me she quit because she thinks all the problems are mine.

But yes, I need to spend less time complaining about her, and more time doing.

"Maybe a better way to say it would be that I am not treated with respect."

Then make it clear that is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. From the rest of your story, it doesn't appear that you command much respect.

"They might tolerate him, if they have to, but will make fun of him, make sarcastic responses to his comments, make it clear that he is not one of them."

You are one of them. You are the one that pays at least 50% of the bills that puts a roof over their head, food in their mouths and clothes on their back.

"My wife is the leader of the group."

It's time for a coup sweetie. Seriously.

"My two oldest daughters are the followers that take it even further."

Yeah, because they take one look at you and know what their life would be like if they crossed their mother. Can you blame them?

"My son and youngest daughter are like the kids that do not like what is happening, yet don’t speak up in my defense"

WTF is wrong with you? They are your KIDS. It is neither their job nor their place to "speak up in your defense".

"I realize it is somewhat natural for teen girls to treat their dad this way, but because their mother takes the lead, it is 100 times worse."

Uh, no ... it's not "natural" at all for a daughter to be contemptuous of her father. Keep in mind that they are learning by example how to behave in relationships. Think they are going to end up in happy marriages?

"She will very rarely admit that she is wrong. If I present her with irrefutable evidence, she will get angry that I am just trying to prove her wrong."

And you don't see that you have a burning desire to prove her wrong and then feel righteous? You aren't in this to be right or wrong. You are in this to come to a compromise that will satisfy you both, and that will create a healthy environment for your children. It's not about winning. Can't you see that?

"She is very critical of pretty much everybody. Anytime anybody makes a decision, or does anything, that is different than how she would have, she is harshly critical of them. I am at the top of the list. She does not care whether the children are present or not."

You can't control what she cares about or her basic personality, but you can control what you do about it. Like not standing there and taking it.

"When we began having disagreements on how to handle my son, If I do not enforce them, she gets very upset and accuses me of undermining her. (Now that is classic projection, isn’t it?)"

What it is is a classic example of a guy who likes having his chain yanked and enjoys being swept up into the game and being "right" and put upon much more than dealing with some serious issues, either with or without his wife.

"Another example: a couple of days ago, I was addressing an issue between the second and third girl (that my wife brought up and wanted me to address). I was cut off at the knees."

Like you didn't see that coming??? She "wanted" you to address it, and you had no idea this was going to happen because it had never happened before, right? Get real.

Parenting and discipline are matters that must have a united front. There are no exceptions to this. Stop allowing your children to be used as pawns between you and her.

"We basically get along good as a family; but I would say typically at least once an hour, maybe twice, my wife will get a direct or indirect criticism / slam in."

Yeah, that sounds really happy. The next time she does this, put down whatever you are doing and just walk away. Do it without emotion. Get in your car and go to a cheap hotel for the night, and don't call. Keep some spare clothes and toiletries in your trunk. Pay cash so she can't track you down. Then come back home after work the next day like nothing happened. Ignore any questions she has like you are deaf. Don't act smug or righteous. Act like nothing happened. This will throw her off balance. It may take a few times and all the willpower you have, but it will be a wake-up call.

"On top of all this, the girls cling all over her and insist on walking beside her & sitting beside her."

Yeah, cause they aren't stupid. They know who has the power.

"Whether going to the movies, out to eat, sitting in church, even riding in the family van, I never get to be next to her."

Is there a reason why you feel you need permission to be at the head or co-head of your own family?

"If I gently try asking one of the girls to switch places with me, she gets angry and accuses me of causing problems."

Oh Dear God. If you "gently ask"??? What are you? A mouse? She is your WIFE. You are her HUSBAND. You are their FATHER. Your place is beside her, not asking your freaking kids for permission to sit next to your own wife!!!! You don't ask, you just sit yourself down. I don't care if there is only 1/8th of an inch between her and them ... use a shoehorn if you have to ... but you sit down, next to and equal to her.

You say you are seeing a counselor, but to be very honest, I don't see that it is doing any good unless things were a whole lot worse than this before. Part of conseling is being empowered to take action and change behavior(s) so that you get results.

Wow thanks for sharing that. She really is putting you in a bad position. I have a 14 year old daughter and our relationship is really very wonderful. I am not sure if it is unnatural for teenage girls to act that way towards their dad. I have been under the impression that the father/daughter relationship is a deeper bond since there is little clash towards teaching the girls how to become women. The mother tends to be the one that is teaching them so much about being women that the relationship is often strained because the want to rebel against her. It goes the same for father/son in that the relationship also becomes strained since dads role is teach him how to become men. I also have a very different relationship with my daughter that might change that since I was a stay at home dad. It just seems like you are in such a very difficult situation here.

Sorry to hear, at least I have no children w/my wife

dear sir.

i feel for you. you are living with a crazy person with a very strong personality. i have a few suggestions that i hope will help you. i had to tell my daughter that her mother was nuts when she was a small child. i think you have to tell your kids that their mother is not normal and is distorting your family. your kids are not stupid. they can see what is going on. i believe your wife is a lost cause. save your kids by telling them the truth. make as few rules as you possibly can with your kids. teach them to think and make decisions on their own. try to be a trusted advisor rather then THE AUTHORITY. they have to view you as being on their side. throw useful books at them. Changing Bodies,
Changing Lives and Our Bodies Ourselves are excellent books for girls. You will immediatly become the cool parent and your kids will get a lot of needed information.

marriage is now a voluntary association. i would urge you to stay for your kids if you can tough it out. if you can't stay then i am sure you will try to stay involved with them.

the suggestion about walking out is the only one i agree with in the above post. it might shake-up your wife enough to get her to seriously deal with a counselor. good luck

Gee, TryingToHaveTheLifeIWant, you seriously put your BI*CH hat on this morning, didn't you?! Your advice, if we can find it in that vat of vitriol, might be helpful---if we could only get to it without losing all our fingers. I'm just saying.

OP, TTHTLIW has some good points. You need to re-claim your rightful place in the family dynamic. You belong alongside your wife, as an equal partner.

Now, your wife obviously doesn't want to share power. She is not treating the relationship as a team project. She is, bluntly, using you as a cash cow, while reserving all the meaningful actions and decisions for herself. I don't know what her problem is, but it sounds pretty entrenched.

I'm trying to think of strategies for you to re-claim a place in your children's hearts, without your wife going nuclear on you. I'm not sure I can come up with any. From your description, she is extremely volatile.

Only thing that comes to mind, is to get involved in volunteer projects that are meaningful...habitat for humanity springs to mind...or volunteering at the local food bank...teenagers ordinarily are quite idealistic and may be impressed by that, and even be tempted to get involved alongside you. How can your wife complain about something like that? I think if she did, she would come off looking pretty bad.

If your family was less...extremely intractable...I would be in some kind of whole- family therapy. Do you belong to a church, synagogue, anything like that? The community within these will often be supportive of families needing to be healed (one of the few useful functions of organized religion, in my opinion). If you do, talk to your pastor, priest or rabbi about the situation. They may have some ideas about what to do.

Beyond that, I think a seperation (with you living quite close by and available to the kids) might do some good. It might establish the fact that you are not only the cash cow, and are not to be taken for granted. Good luck to you, you are in a tough place.

Gee, TryingToHaveTheLifeIWant, you seriously put your BI*CH hat on this morning, didn't you?! Your advice, if we can find it in that vat of vitriol, might be helpful---if we could only get to it without losing all our fingers. I'm just saying.

OP, TTHTLIW has some good points. You need to re-claim your rightful place in the family dynamic. You belong alongside your wife, as an equal partner.

Now, your wife obviously doesn't want to share power. She is not treating the relationship as a team project. She is, bluntly, using you as a cash cow, while reserving all the meaningful actions and decisions for herself. I don't know what her problem is, but it sounds pretty entrenched.

I'm trying to think of strategies for you to re-claim a place in your children's hearts, without your wife going nuclear on you. I'm not sure I can come up with any. From your description, she is extremely volatile.

Only thing that comes to mind, is to get involved in volunteer projects that are meaningful...habitat for humanity springs to mind...or volunteering at the local food bank...teenagers ordinarily are quite idealistic and may be impressed by that, and even be tempted to get involved alongside you. How can your wife complain about something like that? I think if she did, she would come off looking pretty bad.

If your family was less...extremely intractable...I would be in some kind of whole- family therapy. Do you belong to a church, synagogue, anything like that? The community within these will often be supportive of families needing to be healed (one of the few useful functions of organized religion, in my opinion). If you do, talk to your pastor, priest or rabbi about the situation. They may have some ideas about what to do.

Beyond that, I think a seperation (with you living quite close by and available to the kids) might do some good. It might establish the fact that you are not only the cash cow, and are not to be taken for granted. Good luck to you, you are in a tough place.