Why Not?

It seems to me that if you are receiving government money for food stamps, health care, public housing, etc, that there should be a required amount of volunteering/community services.  There are lots of jobs to be done by people of all ages and stages and it would be a way of paying back for what they are receiving.  It also would make receiving these "entitlements" a little less lucrative and could save tax payers some money.  I have to work for my money, let them work for my money, too.
smilingfaces smilingfaces
46-50, F
29 Responses Aug 4, 2010

This simile face, is a fake profile that belongs to a guy who he claims is his wife, he is heavy into sex and other absurd sexual illicit crap !!!
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but yet he hates on welfare and the down and out!! !!!!

I knew I should not have peeked my "Lib" head into this post. Oh, the ignorance, stereotyping and unbelievable statements made by all you welfare experts. I honestly stopped reading after the third post because all welfare haters say pretty much the same fu kin things. Read this short blog for a different perspective. It basically sums up being poor and in case none if you knew, poverty and welfare go hand in hand. http://killermartinis.kinja.com/why-i-make-terrible-decisions-or-poverty-thoughts-1450123558

What about people on welfare who work or go to school? I'm in graduate on public assistance (Medicaid and WIC). I also have a 2 month old. If I was required to volunteer I'd have to go to school only part-time and would be on public assistance much longer.

What about those who are disabled or mentally ill? There has to be a middle ground here. There has to be a job for someone to be actively checking to make sure those who need it are getting help and those who don't having to turn in a certain amount of job applications per week. There are so many ways around the system, this is what makes it difficult.

Well said keepgoing

This is an old post, but the subject is one of my greatest pet peeves. <br />
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I work with adults in the public school system. It is amazing how the students in govt housing, food stamps and pell grants all seem to be able to afford blackberries with internet access. I have two pairs of shoes I wear to work, but most of these "welfare" students are able to wear a pair of shoes to match every outfit. New outfits all the time too. <br />
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The big problem is that this is not an isolated instance, this is not a few students, this is the majority of the students (adult students, 18-60). <br />
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And its not that they are rich, just that if they get a $1400 pell check it is not put away for books or exams, it is spent on clothes and electronics. <br />
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It does jade you to see those on welfare lying to govt, taking advantage. The students sit in class and help eachother fill out the forms to be approved. One student sold off the right to claim her child on income taxes for a quick $500. <br />
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I think alot has to do with money mgmt. I know one girl (not from work, friends daughter), who was working as a waitress at two establishments. When she found out she was pregnant she quit her jobs, got food stamps and medicaid coverage. She never once considered that if she was working she would have made triple what she receives in benefits. <br />
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Goals and money management, lack of responsibility. We do not let people fall hard enough sometimes. Many on govt assistance lie. they do not report the boyfriend living with them, or the money from illegal activities. <br />
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answer me this...........next time you are in the line at grocery and someone is using food stamp card, what jewelry do they have on? why should they not need to hock that for money? Watch what car they drive, $300 purse they are carrying. How about all of the non food stamp items they are buying. Check out their phone. If more than one person with them, check out all of their phones. <br />
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I have bachelors degree and good career. I cant afford a blackberry, my purse was $4 at a thrift store. I am broke before every pay day. But I am putting money toward my mortgage, putting money away for my childrens college. Why should they have blackberry, not pay mortgage, not put money toward their childrens education? The answer is because they do not have to. <br />
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The expectation of lifetime welfare is out of control. I know of grandparents who receive govt pay checks to take care and baby sit their own grandchildren. Its legal. Morally ridiculous. <br />
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We have allowed immorality into our society. This is a huge issue and will take generations to change. More people need to be on board to help change this. I love the idea of community service. I wonder how many would not even apply if they knew they would be requirered to earn the checks they receive. <br />
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Welfare is supposed to be temporary. I agree we need a program to help in emergencies, but it has turned into a learned lifestyle.

Who knows, maybe at one time they were middle class???!! and had the life style that they could afford to have nice jewelry ?
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What ? you want them to sell the jewelry to live on ??? well guess what .... try to get the same amount money you dished out for those pricy pieces !!!!! Its near impossible !!!
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Been there done it!! you want them to wear clothes with holes and go bare foot !! begging in the streets??? so they can have the gov help them?

Gypsyblu - Your last tirade (of 6 replies) was completely egocentric and had no value toward discussing the topic at hand - SHOULD THOSE THAT RECIEVE BE EXPECTED TO SERVE? I deleted my last comment and reposted it to remove your childishness. I've also blocked you from me so that you can no longer reply to my comments. From this point on, I will adhere to EP code of conduct and no longer speak of you and I would hope that you will adhere to the rules and leave me alone. If SmilingFaces wishes to allow you to continue without moderation, that's her problem - but I think folks should stick to the subject at hand and avoid making everything personal.

You are tiresome gypsyblu. You whine about how hard you work and assume that "rich" folk don't work just as hard AND find time to serve their communities both physically and financially. You're clueless and disrespectful if the truth should be told. "Rich" folk work just as hard or harder than you ever have - you have no idea what sacrifices rich people make since you really don't know any of them and then rich people give time, talent and treasure back to their communities in so many ways that you completely dismiss. <br />
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PS: WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING AT ME ABOUT THE FREE LUNCH PROGRAM? Did you mean to be rude? Did you mean to say that free lunch isn't free? or did you mean to demean me so that my valid argument regarding a free program could be dismissed and you could continue saying that society doesn't offer ANYTHING for free.

It is married to BEST friend and we are not the same person but are often accused of being such and the way we read each others' minds, there are times when even we think we are one in the same!!!

I don't think I'm YOU - silly girl, if I was you... ummm... lol ... you'd be pregnant again! (or on antibiotics!)

If you weren't so fricking dense, clarification wouldn't have been needed. Seriously SF, this woman !

Last fall, our school board adopted a "No Child Goes Without Lunch" policy. The problem the were trying to address was that nearly 50% of the students in our district receive <strong>FREE</strong> or reduced lunches and breakfasts in school while the other 50% have to pay the full price. Now, this <strong>Free</strong> program has been going on in every school system in America for over 20 years, but the economic down turn caused hardships for some of the paying parents and our school board decided to solve the problem. <br />
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Before they interceded, a child owing $10 would not be allowed to have a school lunch and continue running debt. Instead, they would be given milk and a peanut butter and cheese sandwich for free. But the stigma of eating this lunch was embarrassing, so our school board decided to remove the cap on lunch charges and passed a policy that provides for the forgiveness of debts at the end of the year.<br />
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The result has been a financial catastrophe as parents and children realized that they really didn't have to pay for the lunches and there were no consequences for not paying. That was this year – the policy is slated to continue next year and I suspect local tax payers will be forced to pay even more to fund this additional “free lunch” program. <br />
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For the 300+ dollars a year that 50% of the students' families are gifted by the federal government, you say society has no business requesting <strong>any</strong> service in return. Not even say, a promise that the recipient will attend the meetings to discuss the school's personalized education plan to help their child to academic success. Or maybe a guarantee that the students receiving <strong>free</strong> breakfasts and lunches will complete all of their assigned school work in a timely manner. (yes some of them don't need help... but please research AYP standards and failures before you run your mouth)<br />
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SF and I don't see how expecting people to better themselves and their communities through service for help granted is a problem. Yet, you have spent hours and hours claiming that this expectation is unrealistic. That's bizarre and the society you would create is not a good and caring society, it is a selfish society where people only care about themselves.

The only logical reason for you to be arguing against this thread is that you feel we have no business... There's no misconstruction here - you have your agenda and your responses make it clear to every thinking person that has read this blog. Check out how many supporters you've found... exactly NONE.

gypsyblu,, what is the deal? You seem very angry and resentful and are belaboring the point that you paid a lower rent and worked three jobs and got out of the system. Okay, good for you but I still contend that those who get SUBSIDIES and entitlements, which is not to say that they get free housing or free health care, etc cannot do something towards giving back to the society from which they are receiving. There is nothing wrong with expecting those who receive funding for food, health care, housing, etc return the favor. It is done, like I have mentioned with Habitat for Humanity, loans for medical school, grants for teaching fellows, and there are many others. Now I am going to emulate you. THOSE HU RECEVE CN PAY IT FORWARD N HELP OUT NAYBORS N FRNDS N B ACCOUJNTBLE 4 IT.

I do not owe you ANY explanation for why I am not on here nearly as often as you seem to have time and desire for. You have very high self esteem to think that at four am I have nothing better to do than to respond instantly to your comment at your beck and call. Sorry to pop your balloon, but this thread and you are not valued that much. Some of us have a life beyond ep! I might reply to that later or I might not but do not interpret my lack of comment as evading the issue when in fact it is merely MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO! Sorry for your loss.

I am not saying that we should not have the programs, but that there can be more to the programs. As we have more involved with community service, it could cut a lot of costs and maybe then we could afford the programs we have and maybe afford more programs to help out even more people.

I have paid for many opportunities, as has every member of my family, including parents, siblings,spouse and every one of my children. Thankfully, by the mercy of God, I have not had to depend on government opportunities, but have had other opportunities and have done community service since I was fourteen years old. You do not need to worry about my credentials for paying it forward, but let the record show that my credibility does not impact the value of my opinion. I still stand by the idea, even if I had never done anything and that should not be relevant to the discussion. Trying to discredit me does not devalue the opinion to those who truly understand debate.

THAT IS NOT STREET TALK.

Odd

My parents and sibling do not pay for my stuff, I have paid for it on my own. My husbands family has never paid for anything either. My family helped us out with emotional support when our house burned down and they put some photos together for a new album but we took care of ourselves. Yes, they send the children presents for holidays, but nothing too lavish. My family has always promoted independence---they are there for moral support and if I needed them financially, they would help, but they would not tolerate dependence on them but would instead help me get back on my feet and on my own. My sister had brain surgery and was in a coma for awhile at a hospital in my parents town. As soon as she got well enough, she moved back to her town and lived on NO income, she used savings for rent, watched tv for half hour each day while eating dinner, sat in the dark to keep down electric bill and save on lightbulbs, and made a box of cling wrap last eight years as she went through rehab until she could get a job. She was not dependent on anybody and became independent. My parents are not mean people who refuse to help but they help her get back on her own and she did. She has been through a lot and has an amazing story.

Yes, I have been blessed but not with money (as my bank account will show) but with people who fostered independence and a sense of accountability as well as a sense of helping out others. The difference is that when I help someone out, it is not enabling them to continue to need, but to get out of that position. My dad volunteers in a jail to teach inmates how to manage their money when they get out but many of them do not want the help because they say that as soon as they get out, they will do something worse to get right back in while others do not want the help because they say that they will get government subsidies and can live on that little bit. Many think that they can live on social security alone. My parents also volunteer with Koreans who speak little or no English to teach them conversational English and their culture promotes an incredibly different attitude than our culture and we need to learn from them. My point is that while we do need to give subsidies (meaning we are subsidizing what they do/need, not that we are paying for everything since we pay for their cell phones but not their big screen tv's), we ALSO need to promote giving back to those who are giving to them (i.e. giving other services to the community and government from who they are receiving). It works for many other areas (as I said earlier, loans/grants for medical students, teaching fellows, Habitat for Humanity, etc) and I strongly believe it can work for the other subsidies as well and I do not feel it is unreasonable in the least.

Nor is it like a concentration camp.

5 More Responses

Thank you smilingfaces, well done! And you too married2bf, I too am married to my bf 26 years now.

Thanks gemini. I was thinking of changing my name to married2bff but that sounds so High School that SF nixed it. I'm sure your 26 years have been bliss ... well mostly bliss! :) Fine... more bliss than not?

Well said smilingfaces, I couldn't agree more. Accountability has somehow been morphed into a "bad" thing, like how dare you ask someone to actually do something for the freebies they receive. Oh the shame!!!!

I stand by my belief. I, too, am just being real. It would have to be adjustable obviously and the children would participate as well, which would have saved you money on child care. The children at the boys and girls club could be involved, etc. I do not feel guilty and will not feel guilty for wanting the people who are receiving from the systems to give back to the systems. That is one of the problems with society today---bleeding heart sympathy with no accountability. We do not strive to do things correctly but sympathy for excuses. No cars? I know that, but there is plenty to do in their own neighborhood. There are so many things to be done but people DO make excuses.

OK, CAPS LOCK IS ON SO I CAN YELL BACK BECAUSE THOSE WHO YELL LOUDEST AND LONGEST ARE AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT. CANNOT DO ALL THE MISSPELLING, IT IS AGAINST MY NATURE SO YOU WILL HAVE TO PUT UP WITH CORRECT GRAMMAR AND SPELLING. SORRY. OBVIOUSLY YOU THINK THAT BOTH I AND THE GOVERNMENT HAVE NO COMMON SENSE AND WOULD PUT NEWBORN INFANTS TO WORK AND ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD DOUBLE AMPUTEES WITH PACEMAKER, HTN, CVA, CAD, COPD, CHF, PNEUMONIA, ASTHMA, AND DM OUT TO DO PHYSICAL WORK DIGGING DITCHES IN THE ONE HUNDRED DEGREE HEAT BECAUSE HITLER MUST BE MY ONE AND ONLY HERO AND NOBODY WOULD POSSIBLY EVER BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH OTHER THINGS TO DO FOR COMMUNITY SERVICE AND THAT THE OTHERS ARE TOO STUPID TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING. I CAN SEE PUTTING A THREE WEEK OLD IN CHARGE OF CLEANING THE HIGHWAYS IN GEORGIA IN AUGUST. AND OF COURSE NOBODY COULD DO THE SERVICE OF RUNNING THE CHILD CARE. LOL. IT IS NICE TO KNOW THAT YOU THINK SO HIGHLY OF SOCIETY THAT COMMON SENSE COULD NOT BE USED AND A PROGRAM DEVELOPED. FOR EXAMPLE, A TWELVE YEAR OLD WHO IS GOOD IN MATH COULD NOT TUTOR A FIRST GRADER WITH HIS HOMEWORK OR A FORTY YEAR OLD WITH DISABILITIES COULD NOT ANSWER PHONES. WITH SOME THOUGHT AND IMAGINATION, THERE ARE MANY, MANY, MANY OPTIONS. PERHAPS THOUGHT IS TOO MUCH THOUGH.

NO, NOT ASKING, BUT DEMANDING FEEL GULITY

Sooooooo... they can do their part to pay their share. Instead of being pure recipients, they can contribute of their time and/or talents. It is not asking much of anybody. I am not talking about a lot of time and there are plenty of options out there. I have never heard anybody criticize HfH, recipients or anybody else, so why cannot that same idea be carried over to these other programs? I do not see why anybody would think that this is the least bit unreasonable much less think anything about me for suggesting such an idea!

But this is not a story about who should get these entitlements or who is deserving, etc, I am merely saying that there should be a program so that those who get them should do some sort of community service to contribute back to society and to work for my money too.

These are adults!!! They do not smell because they have an aide four hours a day to wash and dress them then fix meals and clean the house because they are not able to. If they become able to, they will lose that service. This is far more prevalent than people realize. We are to feel sorry for these people because they are going to lose their aide and I do feel bad for the people I have seen who truly need it but do not get that service because they have saved their money for retirement all of these years of working, especially when I have just left the home of someone who does not want to do for themselves for fear of losing that service. I have actually been told that they deserve this because I OWE them. Whole 'nother story here, so I won't go down that path. There are some sorry attitudes out there. There are also many good ones and I want to foster the good ones. I do not want to enable the sorry ones.

When I go into the projects in our area, there are plenty of men of all ages and plenty of women of all ages congregating and loitering and they DO NOT WORK. I know this because they are related to people I am working with or know and they tell me. The people themselves have also told me. Their answer to why do they not work is simply, (and I am quoting here)"Why should I when I can get paid not to" I am basing my viewpoint from actual experience. Not everybody feels this way, but there are plenty who do. Our crime rate has increased and our shootings have increased and part of it is related to people with not enough to do who want more (sometimes more drugs, sometimes more cigarettes, sometimes more material items). This is not the majority, but it is increasing. I have gone into homes and there are ten people sitting around laughing and not doing anything except discouraging the person I am working with to help them become more independent with bathing and dressing because if I am successful and the person is able to wash himself/herself, then he/she will lose their aide from coming in and bathing and dressing the person. This is how basic it gets----too lazy to wash and dress themselves.

My daughter has done a lot of work with their thrift store and they always need donations and more volunteers of all ages. I am talking about programs like that. It is a way of paying it forward and fostering a good work ethic. We condemn deadbeat dads (which I am not disagreeing with) but what about deadbeat "workers", so to speak. Also, maybe some of these dads would go ahead and work for money to give to their children if they have to work anyway. I have known people who have said that if they have to work they want to be paid for it. It just seems like a win-win situation in many cases to me which makes it worthwhile.

3 words---Habitat for Humanity. That program sells the house to the person at a very low rate with little or no interest but they MUST participate in the building of the house, They must put in a certain number of hours towards its construction in order to be eligible. That is all I am saying for the other programs. It may not be easy for the family/person, but then working to earn the money for a nonsubsidized house is not easy either. I work full time and at times have had two jobs while raising a family, and doing community service. It is not easy but if a person wants these subsidies, then he/she can make it a priority. And yes, I personally know and have worked with plenty of people who do absolutely nothing towards working their way out of government subsidies whether housing, food, etc., and have absolutely NO intention of it either. There are many people who thrive on a free ride and I resent enabling this.

I really can't believe how vehemently you demand that folk receiving government handouts be sheltered from contributing to society.<br />
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Let's see if we can get you to understand this via a different anecdote.<br />
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Recently we were talking to a family. The daughter had missed passing her End of Grade test in Math by 1 point. The mother actually said, “I don't see why they can't just give her the point”. My head reeled, but I shut my mouth. You see, I provide about 200 hours a year in community service offering expert and free tutoring in mathematics ON HER GRADE LEVEL. This young lady has never passed the EOG in mathematics and guess what, she has never made use of the free tutoring services that are offered. Still, her mother felt she should be awarded that point to pass for no reason other than compassion of the state for the feelings (and work of her daughter). They went on to complain that now she had to go through a week of remediation and then retest just because she failed mathematics by one point. You are trying to tell us that this is appropriate and that we are wrong for believing that the state should NOT award her the point and if anything, the state should MANDATE that the girl go to remediation and possibly require her to take advantage of the free services. We (as a family) believe the attitude of this mother is a direct result of our society's lust for GIVING away aid. America and American values are not strengthen by lowering the expectations for contribution from those that receive aid – American values and America's future is warped and a horrible society with horrible people are being created.

Now you are accusing me of not reading your comments? I admit that I don't give them a serious read since they are BS and you cherry pick your facts therefore your comments have little true value to the thread. Seriously - you are off task and arguing foolishly - but now claim that my dismissal of your rhetoric is because I didn't read you? You should be dismissed because you are presenting only the group of folk that SmilingFaces wants to help without demand and ignoring the large group of folk that SmilingFaces is obviously much more aware of than you are.

Good God girl, you need to be blocked. You are out of control and spreading such lies. Smilingfaces wrote this because she knows and works with the people you now demand that she show you. You are so busy destroying the character of those that have a differing opinion that your debate has gone to pure falsehoods and lies with the additional implication that the poster is more clueless than you.<br />
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Next time you are providing STATE PAID FOR services in a Federally owned home with trash daytime programing blaring its foul rhetoric from their 52 inch flat screen - just remember that gypsyblu has made it clear that these people don't exist and there's no point inventing them or wondering why they can't do communtiy service with the 18 hours a day that they sit on their sofas and choose such garbage from their plethora of satellite channels. Wouldn't it be nice to go into a home and actually find they chose the Discovery Channel or History International just once out of 100 times?

LUCK and FORGIVENESS? Good God, GROW UP YOU FOOL! I don't want to listen to you whine anymore! You make it sound like she asks something of you that she doesn't do herself. Do you think the 100's of hours of Community service that SmilingFaces and her family do is because her job has short hours and her car works? Reading your venom, I can just see you sitting there thinking, “DUH yeah, she's a rich lady, she should have to give and give and give more.” OMG – how can anyone be so fricking narrow sighted. Yeah yeah, you have a tough life and what would happen to the world if folks with easy lives (only have to work one job for 10 hours a day and raise 3 kids) stopped giving their time to Habitat for Humanity, local theater groups and more? You are barking up the wrong damn tree if you think spitting into the “rich lady's” face about how hard it is to find time to give back to the community is going to fall on soft ears here.<br />
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SmilingFaces, isn't it funny how these two that claim to have been grateful and helped by assistance make it sound like you don't want to support programs to help folk when they are down, just because you want to adjust the program to better mirror the values that you have and the very actions and activities that have made your family and children the marvel of your community. As gypsyblu whines about how much you are asking of her tired old body, think of the success that your children have become and the many people that literally ask, “How did you get so lucky?” LOL, my darling, we've been too damn modest. Looking at gypsyblu's comments, I realized that for generations it isn't that fake gene we've been joking about – the answer is MODELING. Oh well, give certain folks guns and they'll make slaves of us all.<br />
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Gypsyblu - The aggressive and slap in the face tone of your comments and demands cause a reader to infer that you wish to crush the intrinsic value of the poster's comments. Therefore "people like gypsyblu" is an appropriate categorization for folks that want to take without return and bully those of us who would dare to ask that recipients be asked for contributions of their own. All Smilingfaces was trying to say was that those who receive should be asked to contribute in some way and if you read your responses, you will see that your tone is belligerently defiant and therefore most readers will assume that you believe that folks that receive the kindness of society should never be asked to reciprocate.<br />
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It's reprehensible that those who fail in life (or stumble) should be in charge of determining the structure and providence of society. Yet, now that 50% of Americans are not a part of the tax code and 2% of Americans pay for 50% of the society's requirements, we've decided that those people are the ones who have the brains and drive to shape our society. And to make matters worse, they think that the backlash is due to a lack of compassion and never understand that successful people are long sighted folk. When the country goes bankrupt... food and energy prices soar wildly … because we set up a system where power is achieved via placation of those that can't rather than assisting those that can't and listening to those that can – it is those that can't that will suffer the worst.<br />
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If I don't need to lecture on CHINA, then you are full aware that allowing our system to be modeled after theirs will create a gap between the wealthiest and the poorest beyond anything Americans have ever known. And the saddest fact is that SmilingFace's children will be wonderfully successful in that system, so it's her compassion for your children is that prompts her to write this sort of blog.

Married, thank you, you have espoused my thoughts!<br />
Gypsyblu- I have done my homework and I do not know what state you are in, but I am not in the state of confusion or denial! (Just joking, wanted to state that before anyone gets defensive about accusations!) Anyway, in our state I know what they charge for housing and I understand well about how it works. I did not say that they got it all for free, but I know many of them who have no income because they choose not to work. I quote here..."Why should I work when I can get the government to pay me for having children" and I know of numerous people who choose not to work because they can get a free ride. I know many people who choose to spend their money on televisions, mp3's and other electronics while I am paying for their housing, health care, and food. The amount of volunteer time can be proportional to the amount received. I am just tired of paying for their free rides and working my tail off while others try to give me a guilt trip that I should do more. Step up to the plate folks and contribute too. Since they obviously cannot give their money, then they can give of their time and talents. I have done my homework, go hang out in the projects and do yours. Do your homework in the real world and see what it is really like. And go hang out there after you have worked your tail off for a full forty plus hour week and then let me know how you feel.

About 10 years ago, when our children were drinking formula and wearing diapers (OK I guess closer to 15 years ago) our taxes got messed up and we ended up owing the IRS a lot of money. The IRS had no problem fixing our budget for us to get their money. The froze my bank account, leaving us nothing to buy food and diapers. Then they gave us a budget that allowed $50 a week for diapers and food. They told me I should get a second job. We worked our way back to solvency, and it was tough. Interesting that one branch of the government can feel righteous in demanding that a citizen work and sacrifice to help the country but if you ask another group of people to try to help out, folks like gyspyblu will say that you are unreasonable and outrageous. <br />
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I have to wonder what lessons my wife and I learned during the years of struggling that some folks would deprive an opportunity for others. Folks, these days, seem to think China is a fantastic economic model for us. Do some HOMEWORK and you'll find that China expects far more than chores from those that receive.

Granted there are some, few but some, that need the help and work in addition to receiving foodstamps, etc., but the majority should be expected to work for what they receive.<br />
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We all work for what we receive, what is so different about expecting them to do the same!?

But we could create a whole new government department to regulate it and bring in a new czar to head the department! Oh the places we can go with this!

Our neighbor happily works for the money that we give him and it is good for both of us. But Sgt is right, Libs will feel that working for your charity is demeaning. That's why they want the government to dole out the charity in the first place... it is much less demeaning to demand more of a faceless bureaucracy than to beg more from a church or say... your next door neighbor. Libs consider the experience of humiliation to be a negative thing. Where you have taken the humiliation of asking for a hand out to learn about yourself and how to become self reliant, the libs would have saved you that experience and allowed you to find comfort in hand out after hand out after hand out.

For as many different reasons as there are liberals---and not one of them makes sense!!