Love and Society

 

To a perfect love.

© 2007

 

We met in Winter.

Had coffee, dinner,

love, each other

 

You come from trauma, pain and loss.

I come from trauma, pain and deceit.

What a perfect pair it seems.

 

You were the foundation for my growth.

I hope that I was your crutch.

What a perfect pair it seems.

 

We did the simple things.

Love, pure and clean, with no demands.

What a perfect pair it seems.

 

We went to places of natural beauty to match yours.

You are more so because

you are able to love.

 

Then came the tribal attitude of the elders

And they convinced you that we are not

a perfect pair.

 

b

bcj bcj
51-55, M
65 Responses Mar 1, 2009

i'll bite you!!! just be still so that I can catch up to you!<br />
<br />
watchit

And now we've come full circle. You're back to explaining yourself like you were doing on page one.<br />
I've already agreed with you.<br />
<br />
love<br />
d

sad - Bah<br />
<br />
I keep saying - in agreement with you ladies/guys saying that people come into your life for a reason - God put her and I together for his reasons. we both healed enough to move on emotionally to help others/find our peace with others.<br />
<br />
We separated with love and peace and no animosity.<br />
<br />
We loved, I healed a bit, she healed a bit. It is wonderful.<br />
<br />
b

Nooooo, little bro! I was just agreeing that Miss CherryMay gave a good comment!<br />
<br />
You know that I think you are very wise. Very. For a scientist.<br />
<br />
hehe<br />
<br />
Actually, I love this poem and all the dialog and fun we had on it. I also see that Miss Orangie thought it was sad too. Just like I did. She's always right, you know.

Wise and modest :) I like that!<br />
<br />
Love and peace to you too.

hey big sis<br />
<br />
What are you agreeing with, that I am not soooooo wise..................... ?

Thanks, Miss May<br />
<br />
What to say in reply........ as your message is complete.<br />
<br />
About wise etc............. hey I am not so sure.<br />
<br />
love and peace

What a beautiful, touching story, bcj.<br />
<br />
I've read it, and all the comments, and I hope you don't mind if I say a few words of my own. <br />
<br />
'When one finds peace, then life becomes simple. I believe that the time and date of my death, and thus, the length of my life is pre-ordained, but only I can determine the quality of my life. So, I love completely and if she needs to go, then i accept and keep on loving and living.' - this is what you said in October, 2009. I love your attitide. You seem to be such a wise man, bcj. <br />
<br />
I agree with you - love is never wasted. It is a bit sad that you two did not have a chance to be together, but the mere fact that you have found love and have been loved in return is all that matters. And although you didn't have a lifetime to share together, it doesn't change anything. It doesn't change the fact that you both FELT what you did. It is happiness. It is bliss. We should be grateful for that, even if it doesn't end with 'happily ever after'. I believe that true love makes us better people, it transforms us. It stays with us forever and no parting can change that.<br />
<br />
And although I would probably cry buckets of tears over it, if it was my case, I get you. It takes a very wise person to think like you do, you know? Acceptance of circumstances is what I'm trying to learn. It seems to me you have already mastered this lesson, bcj.

Thank you sweet Lady of Orange.

: ) <br />
<br />
Sweet an' sad story

WIB<br />
<br />
Welcome into my pond. <br />
<br />
Here is the nub of the matter. One has to be hard and cold to resist the attitudes of the outsiders, and then be soft and warm with your partner. Now when you are discussing the outsiders and the pressures with your partner, you have to be<br />
<br />
HARD AND COLD AND WARM AND SOFT ALL AT THE SAME TIME.<br />
<br />
It's a F'up.<br />
<br />
love and peace<br />
b

hey Cabby<br />
<br />
Caught you out. This proves that you have NOT read my early stuff. hmmmmmmmmmm<br />
<br />
Hehehheeeee<br />
<br />
love <br />
b

I just stumbled across your wonderful words and this very interesting thread bcj when I followed CatchCabby here.<br />
<br />
I am very much of the same mind that love is never wasted, even if it doesn't perhaps have the ending we may have hoped for. It lives as an entity in itself I believe, a bubble almost, but that analogy implies that it is in some way untouchable and separate which is not quite accurate. But still, of itself, I don't think it is ever lost and its energy remains vibrant. Just because we are unable to love that person with the same intensity, for whatever reason, it doesn't negate or lessen the love we felt at its height. <br />
<br />
I have some experience of being affected by the wisdom of elders, although in a slightly different context. Even if we do choose to go against their "wisdom" the resulting disharmony can have such negative effects on us that they do win their argument, sadly, in the end. We cannot help but be affected by the opinions and prejudices of those around us even if we protest otherwise. It's an interesting and ongoing dilemma for many.

Ahhh, B, I understand the reference, thank you for sharing this bit of yur history with me. Elders are not always filled with the 'right' wisdom. They too sometimes need to move with the times! X@

*Wink*

Wouldn't dare, Big Sis.<br />
<br />
Look what you have started. Now I shall have to fend many questions.<br />
<br />
hahahhaa<br />
b

Are you ignoring me, brother?

Miss Brut<br />
<br />
Tradition can be very deeply entrenched and sometimes tradition can be extremely evil. <br />
<br />
We in South Africa, had one based on racism, called Apartheid. This was born from the colonial forces who settled here, teaching everyone that white people are superior to black people (natives). When they left, in '48/'61, the Afrikaners who took power simply perpetuated this evil philosophy.<br />
<br />
If you want a quick view into the dynamic, read "A Passage to India".<br />
<br />
Love and peace<br />
b

why would elders be so cruel? I thought they were wise.

Since many of your stories are getting stirred up again, I just had to check to see if the gentlemen had commented on this one!<br />
love<br />
d

Sirs AP, M101<br />
<br />
thank you for coming to swim in my pond. it is so great to have an injection of testosterone here.<br />
<br />
AP - I am so sorry to hear of your loss of your beloved C, first to the artificial constraints of the elders and then permanently to an addiction. I am so fortunate that I can still see mine periodically, even if only for coffee and that I do not only have to love a memory.<br />
<br />
Also, i am honoured to engage with your intellect.<br />
<br />
Sir M101 - When one finds peace, then life becomes simple. I believe that the time and date of my death, and thus, the length of my life is pre-ordained, but only I can determine the quality of my life. So, I love completely and if she needs to go, then i accept and keep on loving and living.<br />
<br />
love and peace<br />
b

Amazing story, bcj. <br />
<br />
Wonderful thread, too, loving all of the comments. :)<br />
<br />
Poetic and more than a little humbling. <br />
<br />
I am glad that you have been able to move on. I think many of us here at EP can certainly relate to this sort of loss of love, no matter what the circumstances...<br />
<br />
Peace,<br />
<br />
m101

sure milady d<br />
<br />
for me it is a salutation.<br />
<br />
love<br />
b

I hope you saw my comment which is above your previous comment.<br />
<br />
I rest my case ;-)

milady<br />
<br />
you are correct. it is only ladies who have engaged with this piece.<br />
<br />
what should i make of that?<br />
<br />
love<br />
b

Plus, in your comment "Posted Jul 21st, 2009 at 9:50AM"<br />
<br />
Please note that you begin<br />
<br />
"miladies"

hehehe<br />
<br />
to use a comment that i saw once. once your work-read comment is in the public domain, then ........<br />
<br />
thank you for bringing it to my attention. i shall go and look now to confirm that only ladies indeed have commented.<br />
<br />
love <br />
b

Actually, I said "we ladies" because only females had commented. Had it been both genders who commented, I would not have used the term. It was simply a social gesture and not an argument or a stance or a position of any kind.<br />
<br />
It is interesting to me that you would perceive it as such. <br />
<br />
ps--the nautical references are duly noted and appreciated. <br />
<br />
love and peace<br />
d

sweet lady d<br />
<br />
I do so wish that you would not engage with a "we ladies" argument, because I engage you as equals when discussing an issue. I find it debilitating and I, almost invariably, cannot engage further because I am not a lady and I could only intelectualise how being discriminated against throughout history can affect the way that you argue or reason. I am truly at sea when you say this because the fr<x>ame of reference becomes too abstract for me to fathom. This simply takes the wind out of my sails.<br />
<br />
So, no, I cannot see how ladies xyz.... because while I can intelectualise , I can never truly empathise because I have not walked a mile in your shoes. <br />
<br />
However, I listen and note the comments, and continue to engage you with respect for your intellect as an equal. <br />
<br />
love and peace<br />
b<br />
<br />
ps- how do you like 3 nautical refs in one para. hehehe

This story and the comments back and forth have been very interesting to me, as you know, Sir b.<br />
<br />
I am delighted that you have taken the time to reread them and perhaps better understand what we ladies were trying to say.<br />
<br />
I totally see your viewpoint and understand it. But I still feel that when love is over there is the loss of the dream that once was.

to all my friends above and the others who took the time to comment. i have just reread all that you have said and it is all valid.

i used the word "Lost" in the group because it is the closest socially accepted term to describe such events.

However, I do not think of this as "Lost", for I have certainly not lost anything meaningful by loving.

Now, I know that I am not "normal". I cook, clean, iron, wash laundry, shop for everything including panties/gstrings and tampons, but i shall not change and I have no stress if I continue being me. If the lady in my space/life is intimidated by it, then she will migrate away.

This is not rocket science. Open your heart and love her. When she wants to leave because the loving is "too much", just know that you are not being crazy.

love and peace to all
b

ps. i am not trying to close the comments on this piece so feel free to abc........

miladies<br />
<br />
i have no sorrow nor pain about these relationships. I enter them with full expectation and with no expectation.<br />
<br />
i am really not surprised when they go north or south.<br />
<br />
i live in the loving. If it goes sour then we have to part. I don't stop loving them, but we simply stop sharing the same space and we stop touching.<br />
<br />
love and peace.<br />
b

I am so sorry for your loss

always milady.<br />
<br />
b

I believe I mentioned Romeo and Juliet in one of my first comments, b.<br />
Keep up, ok?

In fact, it is what all the most gripping plays and movies and novels are made of.<br />
<br />
let's see.<br />
As far back as jacob, rachel and Leah<br />
Romeo and Juliet<br />
west side story<br />
The Soprano's<br />
All the soapies<br />
etc and this etc is probably thousands of line long<br />
<br />
hehehe<br />
<br />
b

It happens everywhere. A father, mother etc stops the child from seeing someone with a threat of disowning, etc. children from a first marriage do it when the parent wants to remarry, etc<br />
<br />
I am sure that you can fill in the gaps.<br />
<br />
This is evil, as is all kinds of blackmail, extortionism, and urban terror.<br />
<br />
b

Then we have come to an understanding.<br />
<br />
It was the emotional blackmail that saddened me.

Lady d.<br />
<br />
yes but only because she was emotionally blackmailed to make this choice. <br />
<br />
So evil prevailed.<br />
<br />
Not at her, nor with her.<br />
<br />
love

I keep coming back to this story and thinking about it. The last stanza is what makes me sad:<br />
<br />
"Then came the tribal attitude of the elders<br />
<br />
And they convinced you that we are not<br />
<br />
a perfect pair."<br />
<br />
All the comments about perfect love and True love aside, it is sad to me that that tribal attitudes could convince someone that she and he were not a perfect pair. It appears that she at one time did think they were a perfect pair. I was saddened that the attitudes of others could change her mind.<br />
<br />
b, did you not feel a bit of sadness over this?

You have a such an ob<x>jective wisdom. . . I continue to admire your perspective and insight!

i noted that you have commented on somebody's story "I live in a sexless marriage".<br><br />
<br><br />
I don't get it. There no such thing as a sexless marriage. It is an Oxymoron - with the emphasis on Moron.<br><br />
<br><br />
If he can still get an erection and he refuses to share it with you, then he is giving it away somewhere else. <br><br />
<br><br />
If he can't get an erection, oh my, there is science, there are toys (let's call them prostheses - maybe then it won't be repulsive), he has ten digits.<br><br />
<br><br />
His duty is to keep his lady giggling like a schoolgirl until she is ninety (or until they dress her in that final pine suit) she must die with a smile of her face. Idiots<br><br />
<br><br />
b

I concede to your point about no imperfections in True Love. That is why this type of love is so rare!<br />
<br />
Shakespeare was exactly who I had in mind. My brother is a theater teacher and has a passion for Shakespeare. I loved reading Shakespeare's works, but my brother painted an even more vivid picture for me when we would talk about a particular play or sonnet.

that will take some doing - because i really would like to pick shakespeare's brain.<br><br />
<br><br />
who the hell was the "dark lady". Was she some royalty's wife or daughter, was she a chamber maid from Spain or Africa perhaps, or was she actually a man?????<br><br />
<br><br />
About love, there simply is no sadness or imperfections in true love. Possession, dominance, control are all signs of madnesses and because they do not come from healthy minds, they do not represent what god meant for us.<br><br />
<br><br />
b <br>

I hope you don't mind me getting involved in this discussion. I can see both of your sides in this poem, and now that I think about it, isn't that what the poem is about - 2 different sides of love - the beauty, the perfection and then the sadness and its imperfections?!<br />
<br />
B - your comments made me think about all of the times throughout our education that we have been "told" how to interpret a poem, a literary work - wouldn't it be interesting to actually talk to the author's of some of these works and see if they would agree with the interpretation of the "experts."

anna. i thank you for your attention. <br />
<br />
there is no "end" because the love remains although the spacial and maybe even, the temporal orders have turned into chaos. <br />
<br />
yes, we still meet, but only a few times each year. the loving, by virtue of the separation, is different now. there can be no erotic relationship, because we have dedicated to new partners and new paths in life.<br />
<br />
the relationship, in specific, that is detailed above, was an inter-tribal and in fact an inter-racial one. Now my country is extremely young in its liberation after very strict and very deeply taught and entrenched segregation on racial lines. this was policed and inter-racial marriages were criminalised. <br />
<br />
well, 14 years on, this evil of racism, while no longer on the statute, is still a strong force in people's lives and minds. her words were "This will kill my father", proving that while she has reformed this element and opposed her teachings (for the good), old, entrenched evil attitudes (racism, classism, tribalism, etc) are still hurting her, by keeping her away from what could be, and forcing her to deal with things that have no place in today's world.<br />
<br />
And, yes we are friends, and will always remain so.<br />
<br />
she some of the other writings for clues - <br />
1. love<br />
2. lover <br />
3. eve<br />
<br />
by the way, i love the photo that you are using. i do photography as a hobby. please tell me more about the image etc. also see my pics<br />
<br />
thanks again <br />
<br />
b<br />
ps you can pm me for any info.

I would be curious to hear the end of this "love story". <br />
<br />
Do you ever still see her? Do you remain friends? What were the "differences" that were too great to overcome?

d. i know that women are different. God made you so. just on the physical, you have soft body parts where there should be.<br />
<br />
one reason why i love you so. wouldn't change your design for the world. just perfect, emotionally, physically etc.<br />
<br />
hehehe<br />
<br />
b

You are most welcome, b!<br />
hehe

thanks d, for chirping from the sideline like a little bird with the onset of spring. <br />
<br />
hehehe

But see, women look as it as a sad poem. I told you so!

i am not sad about the experience. my duties there have been done. <br />
i have loved her, which is what i meant to do. <br />
she came to a fork in the road and chose the other path. i believe that God brings people together and only we know how to stuff it up.<br />
<br />
b

good morning. (my time) <br />
Thanks mizzblue. are you ok.<br />
like the new mood<br />
b

What a profound and moving story. How sad -

of course you are always right. i know how this works because i have been married with children.<br />
<br />
hehehe

i understand perfectly well that once my work is in the public space, it is no longer mine to dictate interpretation. <br />
<br />
i only interact with a few trusted, respected people.<br />
<br />
b

hehe...glad you noticed that!<br />
<br />
Of course debate is healthy! As long as in the end you realize that I am right!......just joking!<br />
<br />
It is always interesting to know what the author intended and hopes to convey-- in his own words.

difference between the way........ hehehe so funny

oh. i agree. but the author is also allowed the debate/interpret/re-interpret is he not. <br />
<br />
as long as he is not dictating to his audience, i believe it could be healthy.<br />
<br />
b

I don't know, b, it must be the difference between the way a male and a female look at it. Or a scientist and a gardener. Although I do see the sunshine and lushness, I am left with a feeling of sadness that the tribal attitudes of the elders were able to convince the other that they were not a perfect pair.<br />
<br />
That's the thing about creating art in any form. We release it to the world and then the observer of our work interprets it from their own lens of perception. It is no longer ours!

and of course "love" the poem that is<br />
<br />
b

d. about your "sad" comment. please see the sunshine and lushness in the piece. the confounding of the lovers is merely factual. <br />
<br />
the true essence is the purity of the love. the intertwining of the platonic, the intimacy and the erotic is the story, i hope, that lives on. <br />
<br />
see lover, friends, eve to find the continuum<br />
<br />
b

Yes, I understand.<br />
<br />
Older than Romeo and Juliet. And very sad.

i have been told that this is commonplace. it talks to prejudices with respect to inter-faith, race, tribe, class, etc relationships

How sad that the attitude of the elders caused this to be a poem about love lost.