Discrimination Is Discrimination

You know, it almost sounds like you're saying we should have allowed segregation to continue because it was a tradition.



I'd like to point out, too, that segregation applied to public places, not private. Churches are private. You can exclude anyone you want from a church. It's something else entirely if the majority of the congregation want to include gays and lesbians...you know, like Jesus would, but what usually happens is the minority split off and form their own church, where they can exclude anyone they want again.



I think it's safe to say our views of the world are very, very different.

Wow..can I borrow your crystal ball MM?

Well sometimes rigid and inflexible traditions and values are nothing more than a thin smokescreen for anal retentiveness. That anyone would think the next step following gay marriage is someone forcing a church to perform the ceremony is nothing short of laughable.



Note to self:



Don't confuse condoms and shoes. It'll upset the ladies and my feet won't get any traction at all.



Personally, I like living in a kind, gentle, compassionate world where everyone is treated with respect and understanding and what laws there are make at least some sense.

Online Grandpa-Thank you for your contribution I don't think anyone should be denied their right to express their commitment to one another through marriage just because they are of the same sex, it's ignorance and fear that fuel discrimination against others, this is no different.



I posted the below comment on another story MM ranted about so I wanted to post my voice here as well with regards to his "traditional" views on marriage.



"Interesting MM that you have such strong opinions about tradition and culture in our society...quite frankly you're one to preach considering the fact you gloat about living with two wives and your insatiable cravings for a young, hot twenty something little girl...WTFE. Consider your own personal choices in the lifestyle you're currently living before spreading your hypocritical gospel to others."

Did I say anything about gay sex? People can have sex with a fence post for all I care.



And you keep beating me over the head with 5000 years of tradition and definitions and I'm saying that how we define something like marriage is completely arbitrary. It is whatever we say it is.



Look, I'm not really calling you homophobic. I don't really know you well enough. But, I'm figuring people who are totally against gay marriage either have a book in their hands that says gay marriage is forbidden or they just don't like gays. We can spend all day splitting hairs but, in my opinion, it comes down to one of those two things.



This may not be a human rights thing to you but it is very much to me. I'm an egalitarian. I'm for equal rights. Racial equality, gender equality, and sexual preference equality. It's all the same to me. Human rights.



I don't care about traditions. Traditions are often discriminatory. And definitions are whatever we decide they are. What I don't understand is why you seem to be turning yourself inside out over this.



Do you think gay marriage in any way diminishes the quality of your marriage?



I guess what I'm saying is who the hell cares? I'm sure I don't.

That you think gay and lesbian marriage is NOT physically possible shows, perhaps, an underlying misunderstanding on your part of human physiology.



Also, it's not a civil rights issue at all. It's a human rights issue.



I notice you couldn't help but go right to a blanket statement that no one on Ep understands this issue...except you...or that all the rest of us are simply afraid to buck the latest fad.



That you think gay and lesbian marriage is somehow titillating to anyone, I find quite repugnant.



Keep the discussion going, though, because you're seriously reminding me just how much I dislike homophobia.

A cow has no right to behave as a horse because a cow cannot decide, of its own volition, to do so.



If it could, it would then have the right to refuse to be ridden, to be milked, or to be slaughtered for food.



As far as rights go in general, they're completely arbitrary. They're whatever we say they are. Women were considered chattel until we decided otherwise. Negroes were slaves until we decided otherwise. Muslims will continue to stone 13 year old rape victims to death for adultery until they decide otherwise. Gays and lesbians will continue to be discriminated against and persecuted until WE decide otherwise.



Or until they achieve a political majority, which might actually be funny. At least I would find it so.

BettyValentine, you are too kind.



But my argument is based on nothing more than compassion, understanding, and fairness.

Well, it's one thing to accept the marriage of gays and lesbians as a matter of law. It's another thing to just live and let live. I'm more concerned with my own ethics than I am the laws of the land and my own ethics say that couples are couples and all couples should have the same rights, and I rest my case, too.

It's interesting that homosexuality has been around since we climbed down out of the trees and I'm pretty sure some of us were doing the deed up in the tree limbs so if we're going to defend traditions, I suppose we should begin by honoring one of the oldest, homosexual relationships.



Of course, we can be witty and drone on and on as if we're actually saying something, but I think the truth is some of us just don't like gays just like some of us don't like people who like guns. No amount of discussion is going to change that.



In a few thousand years, if humans are still around, we may actually live in a kinder, gentler world where we actually are our brother's keeper.

Agreed manmandela! Lots of straight marriages fail too -for example both my parents had been married previously and neither of their marriages worked out.

The problem with an interspecies marriage is animals are not able to give their consent. Yes, your cousin may love her dog but there's no way of knowing if the dog loves her or is just pleased because she switched to Alpo dog food.



Of course, your cousin might be referring to interspecies erotica (see CLERKS 2) and, in that case, male dogs do actually provide their own consent for that kind of activity with human females.



Ok, Mitch and Maureen, I hope you're having as much fun with this as I am and I'm ok to keep going as long as you've got wind.

Well, I need to chime back in on this one.



I don't particularly have a problem with someone marrying their own daughter. I wouldn't care to do that myself, but I'll defend your right to do it because it's the compassionate thing to do.



Of course, I grew up in the South so I've heard that 'tradition' argument used against interracial marriages and interfaith marriages, too.

Uh, President Elect Obama is not a social liberal. He's a centrist.

Well, in that case, you're probably right, but I tend to view traditions as unexamined values which tend to produce knee jerk reactions in people who accept those traditions without thinking about them.



In other words, I don't steal because it's illegal, immoral, or a social tradition, I don't steal because I've chosen that as a personal value and made it part of my own ethics.



I think broadening the definition of marriage, even the definition of family, is a good thing, and that's how I define family values for myself.

Well, I suppose that's why we're social liberals. We don't have narrowly defined definitions for things like marriage and we don't believe in legislating lifestyles. Other than 'do no harm,' we're pretty much good to go.

What special place?



Are you saying marriage is special because it's holy?



Wouldn't it then follow that atheists shouldn't be allowed to marry?



The decline of marriage in general has more to do with mounting social pressures than it does with broadening definitions of marriage itself.

I love you social conservatives.



Marriage: any combination of people living as a family unit with the same legal protection granted any other family unit.



I'm not fond of cats so can we just change the word dog to camel?



Please explain to me why gay and lesbian couples who wish to be formally and legally recognized as a couple in any way detracts or diminishes your marriage?



I will admit to a certain bias, though. I'm seriously a family values kind of guy. You want to be a family, I'm on your side.



You mention donkeys, I saw this really cool live performance once.....but that another story.