Excuse Me

Making people angry ?

Yes. A very special group of people tho.

So men weren't sexist and hostile before feminism? Did you consider that women didn't feel victimized before feminism and that feminism gave that a voice and empowered women to stop being victims and start advocating for the changes they feel are needed to stop women from being victimized.

not like they are today. & no doubt some did, but i'm sure a lot of women didn't realise they were "victims" until feminism started telling them that they were. men & masculinity are being attacked - what do you think will be the result? that men will just be like "oh, you're right" or that they will lash back?
it would have been wonderful if the feminists just stopped at equal rights, but they didn't. they wanted more than that. it's almost as though they wanted men to be considered as dogs socially & women to be privileged.

there was (& still is) a feminist backlash for a reason.

So you aren't being victimized if you aren't told that you are?
If you have your money stolen and don't realize it isnt your money still stolen ?

that wasn't what i said. women weren't "victims" - feminism re-inforced the idea that they were. sure, there were some equality issues that needed to be fixed (such as right to vote, equal pay ect), but they kept it going to the point that now it's just obviously unfair & has come at the expense of men.

Funny the same people who say it failed are the ones who decry how it is taking over the world.

Was world power the original aim of feminism?

I'm coming from an assumption that the original aim was equality, obviously I'm wrong. Personally I take Warren Farrell's approach: Where feminism represents equality, I support it. Where it doesn't, or tries to whitewash itself, I don't. This thread falls firmly into the latter category.

I'm not interested in having a discussion with someone who has already "decided" they know my views on anything but, have not asked me. Go elsewhere with that sort of ignorance

You believe feminism is a failure but support Warren's theory ? Lmao

"Funny the same people who say it failed are the ones who decry how it is taking over the world."

Oh SNAP! ;-)

Teeheehee

Dente I feel deceived.. you never told me feminism's original aim was world domination!

LMAO I didn't know it was... Maybe because it wasn't...it was originally to get the right for women to you know VOTE... <------shhhhh don't tell anyone about that

Now that you guys can vote I think it is high time we get a woman president so she can disappoint us, just like her male counterparts do. I am tired of guys taking all the blame for messing this country up! See that is what antifeminists don't get.. when you let women be in positions of power you get to sit back and ***** about everything they do. What is not to like about that? Women have been enjoying that perk of not being in power for far too long.

LMAO... but, she will detonate the nukes everytime she mensturates

Oh *snap* so true.. so so true :p

It is depressing but, it also serves as reminder for us to not become complacent... And illustrates the need for better education of gender equality, not only in the 1st world but globally.

I completely, completely agree with this. The vast majority of stories and comments I have seen in this group are incredibly depressing. I think that the only way to change minds is for BOTH sides to return to rationality and truth, though I unfortunately believe that people in general aren't capable of this when discussing such a hot-button issue. In fact, I think the post that started this is an example of a feminist using the issue of feminism to build resentment and widen the divide. Not all feminists engage in this kind of behaviour, and we need to speak out against it in order to reclaim the true spirit of feminism (being freedom, inclusivity and equality). It happens enough that it has indeed left a mark, and it is indeed arguable that a reasonable person might feel uncomfortable being labeled a feminist. We need to bring people together and have rational discussions that are designed to build an understanding and empathy between both sides of the debate and hopefully educate others on how important feminism has been in our history, and how important it still is today.

But as long as we use feminism as a means of alienating others, as long as we leave the inclusivity issues plaguing some branches of feminism unacknowledged, the more ideologically and dogmatically driven we appear and the less likely it is that we will accomplish our goals of broadening the understanding of feminism to those who are pitted against it in ignorance.

Of course, this is the internet and humans are only human - it'll never happen on a meaningful scale. But all we can do is try.

I agree with everything you say except this:

In fact, I think the post that started this is an example of a feminist using the issue of feminism to build resentment and widen the divide.

The parrallels between anti-feminism and opposition to heathcare are obvious. One involves redefining feminism as man-hating and the other involves redefining healthcare as communism. The proponents of both positions deserve to be challenged and so afforded an opportunity to defend themselves.

What is interesting about the debate that ensued is how utterly one sided it was - the good guys fought amongst themselves, cutting up quite nasty, while the bad guys never landed a punch. Interesting but not surprising.

Unfortunately Dente didn't actually discuss any of those issues or put any thought into her initial post - she threw that statement out there like a steak to a pack of wild dogs, adding the deliciously condescending "sillie nillie's" on the end of it. I won't pretend I'm perfect and that I don't get upset when I read the posts in this group (see below) but this was not a thoughtful post and it was not intended to educate, but to be inflammatory. If the point was to educate, she would have approached it very differently; for a start, it might have been more than two lines long and less condescending. Behaviour like this contributes to the negative perception of feminism, and it certainly does nothing but breed resentment and incite reactive discussions rather than thoughtful ones.

I want to add that I'm focusing on this because people like Dente could do a lot of good in the world if they would just slow down and think a little bit more about the consequences of their actions. Try to put a little more emphasis on truth, rationality and thoughtfulness. Try to behave in a way that honours what feminism is. That doesn't mean we don't make mistakes or get angry - we all do - but if the point is to educate, do that instead of what she's doing now, which is maintaining the debate on a very superficial and emotionally charged level. Only with cooler heads can real discussions with any depth be had. And only with a dedication to truth above all, rather than dedication to dogma, can we begin to build trust amongst each other.

Garcia, have I told you lately that I love you? I do. (For now). Misguided interpretations of feminism: I think that's the primary crux of the issue. There are some utterly uneducated comments. One only has to scroll through this comment page to see the vitriol from "anti feminists" who blame the movement for men walking out of their families to their daughters being in bars at night. I am unclear as to why personal responsibility is never sought or requested from said individuals. I suppose it is far easier to place blame on a bogeyman and continue the cycle of victimhood. I will say... Dente's comments have stayed relevant and have not devolved into superfluous examples or, well, "crazy" which is often so prominent in these discussions. Garcia is right; to say feminism has failed is to misunderstand not only what feminism means but also what failure means. (The truth is, you can only lead a horse to water....)

@Dente... Agreed. Complacency is the devil; that is why I have always maintained the need for feminism to continue. To say, "I have what I want so we don't need it anymore" is selfish and demonstrates the lack of understanding of how quickly our choices can be removed from us if we do not protect them.

Cocochai. I can't agree. Yes, the original post was provocative but I don't think that it put Dente in the 'giving the anti-feminists fuel for their fires' caste. To my mind, everything she said afterwards was spot on except that she was unnecessarily abrasive in her interaction with you and with one other poster, for whom I felt some sympathy until she completely misrepresented another story Dente had posted. I wonder if that abrasiveness has coloured your perspective. I have no doubt that that possibility has already occured to you.

That abrasiveness has absolutely coloured my perspective - it's the essence of this discussion as far as I'm concerned. We will have to agree to disagree about the rest - I don't believe that discussions where two sides react angrily off of one another are helpful to the cause, and to me it's clear that that is what this topic was intended to provoke.

Coco I do wonder if you feel better about yourself yet? No less than 3 women have tried to steer you back to the actual CONTENT contained on the post, choosing to read INTO something rather than simply READ something is usually unproductive in most matters. I do feel compelled to once again ask if this "knowing" what MY motives are despite not knowing me and not even bothering to ASK me and then when told of my motives by ME somehow you "know" that I am wrong... Others also question your "knowledge" of my motives and yet you persist in "knowing" my motives more so than myself or any other person ... Fascinating ... Would this "knowing" of yours qualify as "opining first"? It seems to meet all your previously stated criteria. Does it then also make you guilty of the same character flaws of "opiners" ? Or are you above reproach even when using the measuring stick you designed ? Discuss the topic or post elsewhere ... You've made your opinion of me clear and now your simply being redundant for the sake of your own bruised ego. I wonder if you'd put as much thought into knowing your own motives as you've put into mine, would your comments be the same? Garcia is spot on about my analogy using feminism and healthcare. You seem incensed that I dared to post my opinion in this group, ironic to me as I wonder why or more so how it is possible you don't see the parallel to your own comments which are rather numerous and filled it with much tastier bait. Once again I assume your own measuring stick does not apply to you or your actions ... As they are above reproach yet again. Responding to you is tedious and useless as your clearly not willing or able to discuss the subject matter and are only interested in "putting me in my place" and "bringing me down" ... You won't be successful because as stated by myself and others numerous times what you think you "know" about me or my motives IS IRRELEVANT TO THIS POST ... I suggest looking into ad hominems and fallacies of relevance in depth (I can send you links if you would like) as it will be helpful to you in future discussions. I want to thank you as your behavior has inspired me to write a story ... I will be sure to send you a link when I'm finished! In the meantime I have a question... Even if everything you said about me is true (giggle) what does that have to do with feminism being or not being misconstrued in a similar fashion as healthcare and death panels?

P.S. I'm sorry your feelings got hurt. I am abrasive. I would say though that letting personal emotions have such a great effect on your perspective is dangerous. It's this very thing that leads to things like racism, fascism and xenophobia (not accusing you of being those things just showing the parallels in thinking and emotions)... It's best to judge the subject matter on logic when possible. It's the negative effect of emotionally fueled perspective that is the basis for "prejudicial evidence" not being allowed in courts of law. It's called "prejudicial" for a good reason! Another issue which has arisen and is apparent in your numerous comments is that hasty generalizations are also logical fallacies. Also, one must also be careful on presenting subjectives as if they are objectives ... Something which has poped up in your comments quite a bit as well. We all fall prey of course but trying to be aware of these errors in reasoning and trying to avoid them when possible allows for better communication and allows for productive discussions/debates ... Of course sometimes even when we are educated on fallacies we still slip up and it's helpful for one to be able to objectively look at their arguments once we have been informed by others that we have gotten off course. I am looking forward to you participating in a logical based discussion soon! I'm sure you'll have a unique and interesting point of view on the SUBJECT. You certainly had one on me and people "like" me!

Hey Dente -

I have kept my discussion limited to the scope of what was provided in this post and the subsequent two threads I have participated in, and I have been VERY clear about that, despite you and others pointing me posters profiles so I can pre-judge them and treat them differently after skimming their profile and stories. I'm not talking about feminism here. I'm talking about what behaviour harms the perception of feminism, and what is counterproductive to education. I believe that your behaviour as demonstrated on this page is too willfully hostile to be educative. I don't need to go beyond this page to discuss that.

Again, the discourse in this thread speaks for itself. Perhaps take a little time to cool down and think about your goals before you write your story.

Except that I was never heated. and you still have not answered my very basic questions.

and still this is some personal attack upon my character which is still a error in reasoning and still is no relevant to the actual discussion. You are strawmanning yet again, this post isn't about misconstruing me, its about misinformation being used as a tool to discredit a movement or idea. There is nothing you can say that changes that. so once again I would invite you to contribute to the subject or post elsewhere.

@coco i am offended for every single person who commented on this page when you say that this did nothing to educate and provided no "thoughtful" discourse... this post and everyone who contributed to the subject matter did a lot of good.... I am sorry you refuse to see that... i find that offensive. The fact that you would insinuate that this post did harm and no good is the only thing that makes me feel a little heated... and i find your dismissal of this thread rather irrational (using your measuring stick of course)

"I wish I could add something to this discussion which would make the likes of Knightrunner, Aminathius and Newjaninev2 discard their misguided definitions of feminism and understand and accept that feminism is, and always has been, about securing parity of esteem between genders."

The only way you could do that is by going back in time and removing all the feminists who dedicated themselves to the hatred and villification of men. Or revisionism, that's probably more realistic.

I agree with you Garcia. It is so frustrating to hear anti-feminists claim they know more about feminism than feminists do. Their misguided definitions are ridiculous and their constant false claims about feminists and feminism make them appear to be extremely delusional. Just as you can only lead a horse to water, but . . ., you can also only attempt to educate an obviously uneducated and/or closed minded person, but . . .

It appears someone has decided to use hyperbole because they lack the facts and logic to make a actual statement. How incredibly predictable.

As a matter of fact, feminism focuses on PREVENTING the sexualization and objectification of our daughters by teaching young girls that they have so much more to offer than their desirability. Sexualization becomes a trap when no other options exist for women. Oh, and if any man abandons his responsibilities, he need only look into the mirror to see the cause of that.

@red exactly... newjan doesn't want to do anything to fix cultural problems so they find a scapegoat and create fictions of victimhood

feminism taught me, my daughters, and so many other poor dupes the great falsehood: that to be equal we had to be the same. Did the thought never cross your mind that two very different things can have equal merit? Listen to yourself! "preventing the sexualization and objectification of our daughters"... right out of the handbook. Go downtown on a Saturday night and watch our daughters being harvested in bars. No father in their lives, so they have no idea what it's like to be unconditionally loved by a man, so when some youth says 'I love you' they believe him, because they need to believe him, because they've always dreamed of it. And why wouldn't that youth lie to her... he's never had a father to show him honourable, manly behaviour. But you just go on spouting your rhetoric and the buzzwords they taught you in Women's Studies 101. You're selling us out for a discredited, defunct ideology. You talk about fictional victims... the rest of us call them children

^^sounds like a personal story turned into victimhood rationalization. ^^
My daughter has a father in her life, she isn't being harvested in a bar. Maybe you could find a better place than a bar for your daughter to be? A suggestion would maybe be with her father or you. I am sure you have an excuse for why this is not possible as well?

I find it disgusting that you label victims as children, or children as fictional victims BTW...

I am sorry that you feel the words "sexualization and objectification" are from a handbook (to me those are very basic words, but um, ok) It is interesting how you have removed any aspect of personal responsibility from the scenarios you mentioned. A man lies? "Feminism!" A family breaks down? "Feminism!" No father around? "Feminism!" No mention of a man needing to take responsibility in your examples at all. Agree with Dente: you are projecting a personal story onto an "ism" to claim perpetual victimhood rather than holding individual people responsible for their own actions and circumstances.

i feel bad for newjan, her fathers absenteeism has caused a vicious cycle of "looking for love in all the wrong places"... I hope she can get the help she needs... She deserves happiness no matter what her father or other men have made her believe.

Agreed. It's sad when someone's lack of presence make such a lasting impact as it colours all areas of the person's life :(

DenteAvvelenato you are exactly right. I hate it how we argue with other women, when really we did them a favor. If it wasn't for us, you would be expected to get an abortion if your baby wasn't a boy. Good on you Dente! :)

Read it carefully (or at all)... not me personally... all of us, as in 'we' as in the group 'us'. Nothing personal involved.

New I am sorry I don't understand your comment can you explain

i wasn't talking about my own personal history.... by 'our' i mean women in general i.e. our daughters

I understand that... well at least in some parts I did.... the answer is still the same... by "your" we meant parents

"feminism taught me, my daughters, and so many other poor dupes the great falsehood: that to be equal we had to be the same."
It sounds like you had bad feminist teachers if that is truly the case, and assuming that all women have experienced what you claim they have isn't realistic.
Your wrote "Go downtown on a Saturday night and watch our daughters being harvested in bars. No father in their lives, so they have no idea what it's like to be unconditionally loved by a man, so when some youth says 'I love you' they believe him, because they need to believe him, because they've always dreamed of it. And why wouldn't that youth lie to her... he's never had a father to show him honourable, manly behaviour." I don't know where you live, but what you see on a Saturday night certainly does not occur where I live. Almost all of the women and girls I know, and who I meet in bars on weekends have loving husbands, fathers, and brothers, and if the men where you live have abandoned the women in their lives, and lie to women they meet in bars why is that the fault of feminism?Feminists never encourage men to harvest women in bars, lie to them, claim they love them when they don't, and abandon their families. That is something the men who do that should be blamed for, and not feminism, and men are not the only ones who can teach boys not to lie and to be respectful of women.

that means a lot to me.... I've seen some of your work and am often inspired and awe struck so thank you thank you thank you

Aww.... ohhh that is far too much credit, but that is very kind of you, thank you! (And you are welcome!)

Oh, and you OWNED this comment page...

i agree coco, there are issues within the movement which should be discussed and looked at more closely. This group however, consists mainly as a thin mask of misogyny under the guise of hating feminists is acceptable while hating women is not.

you have a very good point there

I have had similar thoughts blankshooter

A lot feminists feel the definition of feminism is a little different ... I think the focus has expanded from "women" to equality for minorities and all genders (feminism is heavily into helpingthe lgbt movement )

Equality for all sexual minorities works for me...

I think the idea is equality for all by representing minorities !

Just as you say...Sorry, I took a topamax for an impending migraine today...I call them "dopeymax" for a reason...

Whoa, mellow....dude...

It also never ceases to amaze me how so many anti-feminists blame shameful male behavior on feminism. As if feminists can teach men to be lying, cheating, abusers of people.

LMAO.... don't you believe every gender should have equal opportunity at the death panels???

I read something that really struck me...a marriage is not intended to make you happy, it is intended to make you grow as a person. That's quite a different way of looking at a significant other and your partnership, isn't it?
http://www.simplemarriage.net/manifesto.html

Not really ... I think most times when your in a committed loving relationship or have children you want to give them the best and part of that is trying to be the best person you are... A partnership can't exist without both partners each trying to achieve decided upon goals...this lends to growth.

I...sadly, have not always been the best person I could have been. But life's hard.

Let me (patiently) repeat... gender is a linguistic term. Biological organisms have a sex. So, the phrase 'every gender' is meaningless when talking about both sexes

Jani - Gender and SEX are not the same thing.

I am genderally a good person, but sexplicitly refuse to enable disingenuous people.

If you question if I am for equality I suggest looking into my. Many posts...or maybe looking at the group I created...called I am a feminist because I believe in equality.

I'm against the belitting of any group of people... I judge people on indiviual merit. I've posted that men can be raped...I treat all people with the respect they've earned.

I am glad. I am curious though. I am Anti- Feminist. I do not hate Feminists, I just hate feminism. To you, what does Anti- Feminism mean?

Depends.

I'm against non college grads teaching our children. Idont see how u can hate feminism but no feminist..u don't hate someone who is something u hate?!? Anti-feminism-a bunch of people bitching about a bunch of people...pretty much-opposing ideas...=get over becuz people will always disagree...ah humans...:)

Yes, I am AGAINST belittling men, believe that men CAN be raped, and treat men with the same RESPECT that I give myself. I am a feminist because I believe in EQUALITY!

I'm a feminist because I agree with jane...teeheehee

Okay. Let me give you something to ponder on. As an Anti Feminist, I believe that men should be protected as much as women are, that they should be paid the same as a woman on the job, that just as many guilty rapist women should be convicted as men, ect. ALL Anti- Feminists think the same way. If you look, we rarely have arguments with each other because we all believe the same thing. When you look at Feminists, however, you see some women who hate men and think they should all die, some who believe that women are superior but like men, some that think that men are inferior and that women are the supreme power, ect, ect. NOT ALL FEMINISTS BELIEVE IN EQUALITY. Feminism was founded on Women's Rights, NOT gender equality. It has not changed since, whether you like to believe it or not. If you go to a Feminist support website, you will see that women are "still oppressed by men" and that "we have to fight for Women's Rights!". The dictionary definition of a Feminist is "one who advocates the social, political, and all other rights of women." Yes, that definition can vary. But the ORIGINAL MEANING is the one I just gave. Feminism was started on Female Superiority. For those of you who say that men should be treated the same, you are definitely not a Feminist. I am usually not Anti anything, but the reason I am Anti- Feminist is because I believe that Feminism has harmed the male gender. It HAS done good; I as a woman am glad that I cannot be abused legally and I am protected under law. HOWEVER, I am not fond of the fact that other women can use these laws to their advantage. I hate that it is perfectly socially correct to call men gay, weak, animalistic, chauvinistic, and any other names you can think of, but if a man calls a woman the "C" word, he is looked on as the scum of the earth. It is perfectly okay for a girl to wear a shirt that says "Boys Are Stupid, Throw Rocks At Them!", but it is horrid if a boy wears a shirt that says "Girls Are Stupid, Throw Rocks At Them!" ALL of these things were brought on by Feminism. It is wrong, it is hurtful to the male gender, and if Feminism were to be eradicated right this very second and have Equalitarianism brought in instead, we would be much better off as a society. Because, as it's name entails, Feminism is for the women, and for the women only.

You need to educate yourself. I can't debate with people who don't even know the facts....feminism is for women only? Lmao!

I obviously have educated myself more than you have. Feminism= Feminine= Female= Woman. Common sense. Seriously, look up websites for Feminists. It has always been by women, for women. When I become against something, I have already educated myself in depth about it. You, on the other hand, have decided to post on an ANTI FEMINIST page to attack us. I am agreeing with Michelle here. You are not a part of this group. You do not agree with us, you are just trying to start an argument. You are too stubborn to let go of your Feminism, so arguing with us is pointless. We believe that your beloved Feminism has harmed the male gender; many scientific studies have been done to prove this. So, let me take you back to first grade. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. This group is for Anti Feminists and anyone else who has been negatively affected by Feminism. So, if you wish to complain about how "ignorant" we are, by all means, go to the page entitled "I Am a Feminist Because I Believe in Equality", and please leave those of us who see differently alone. Thank you.

Take your posts off my story and follow your own advice.

When you and michelle came along this story was months old.

You are ignorant .... and boring.

Do you even know how the term feminism started? Cause I do. Do you even know what it stands for? Obviously not.
You wanted to let me know why you are an antifeminist...I didn't solict or want your opinion...but, I let you post it...its called free speech...so if you don't like that move on.

Saying 'i am a feminist because i believe in equality' is a simple case of begging the question.

Well said Aminathius, the whole "feminism is about equality for everyone" falls down the drain when you take a look at it's track record and realise that feminism only supports equality when it doesn't threaten the dichtomy of women=oppressed men=privileged. When male oppression is brought up the reaction couldn't be stronger.

Oh, and feminists have also been strongly opposed to trans-rights, if you're going to make monolithic claims about the nature of feminism you'll have to take them too.

I will say it again - it is so frustrating to hear anti-feminists claim they know more about feminism than feminists do. People who claim they know more about a group, organization, or movement than the people who are part of it are arrogant, or for some unknown reason they have foolishly bought into the hyperbolic rhetoric that is repeatedly put out there by people who are antis.

It is clear you need to brush up on the TOS and Community Guidelines. As previously stated. Its a public forum, the public has the right to post as they see fit... if you want a forum who only allows for members who share the same views there are private forums which screen members. I am enjoying my right to free speech. Also nowhere does it say you have to share an experience to post...however in the community guidelines section of the TOS...it states " No Spam: Chain letters, mass mailings, and duplicate postings are not allowed on Experience Project. Please post each story once, to the most appropriate group" Thanks

Wow, you are right. You do have a right to your free speach.

Btw, this was a direct quote from EVERY EP page. As it is no use arguing with people who enjoy antagonism, I will wish you a great day and much happiness.

Thank you princess :)

Michelle,I gave up 22 years of my life so she could say what ever she wanted.Respect it hun.I do,even if I dont accept it.

i tried to get the link of the story knightrunner poasted in the... i live in a sexless marriage ..but didnt work

That's brilliant to go into the sexless marriage group and try to help by causing division of the sexes...gimme a break...looks like the knight is finding noone listens to him or cares about his MRA bullsnot...now he is off to try to find a new cause he can mask his misogyny in. When will he figure out that people don't talk to the homeless crazy person screaming on the street corner, and they sure as heck don't bother listening to them either.

(This isn't a put down of crazy people or homeless people...its an example of how crazy homeless people on the street corner are treated)

yea concept told him that people thier dont take kindly to out siders

There are a lot of good stories on my group I am a feminist because I believe in equality...you might enjoy them!

I just took a quick look. Read your one that began with the Pat Robertson quotation and liked it. I have to go out into the real world now, but I will be back there to read more. Thanks.

Sure there are. But the main damage has been done largely by the types I've mentioned.

"If someone agrees with me, then they are enlightened, courageous and secure. If they disagree with me, it must because they are unenlightened, fearful and insecure."

I agree, much easier than acknowledging that maybe your opponents have a point.

Can you please tell us which organization you are referring to, and some facts to explain why you believe that organization and those who control it are man haters?

Who exactly do you believe controls feminism and what proof or facts do you have that they hate me?

Didn't mean me meant men

I have. Repeatedly. That's what all of my stories.are about.

As I stated above, I have read all of your stories and none of them explain why you believe that feminists want to take your family. They also don't specify which feminist organization(s), and those who control it, are man haters. If you are going to make these kinds of comments you really need to have some factual proof to back it up or you lose your credibility.

ladyblue848, I really like your questions and your Socratic method. I can see you have a well trained, analytical mind. If only everyone would stop and think things through before spouting baseless opinions and accusations, progress would be much quicker.

Thanks for the compliment, and I agree with what you said about people spouting baseless opinions and accusations. They should recognize that when you ask them to supply facts to support their opinions and accusations, and they fail to provide any, it becomes pretty clear to everyone that they are baseless.

Standing and applauding lady blue.

me too

So much unfounded FEAR of feminism out there! I am very comfortable that you are far from being a man-hater.

I second that ovation!

I think a lot of men who don't really like or respect women are ones who desire women but for reasons of social inadequacy that lasts past adolescence, don't know how to talk to them. They desperately want to be seen as alpha males but they have no idea how to go about behaving 'alpha.' They get to an age when they should have achieved something and they see younger people, some of them women, overtaking them on the promotion ladder. In the good ole days when sexual discrimination was 'acceptable' this could not have happened - so obviously women are to blame. It's a lot easier for these guys to overlook their own shortcomings as human beings if they can palm the blame off on someone else. Pick any of the following - Jews, Blacks, Gays, women - white men...

I agree damselfly. Its obvious they have hang ups.

me 3

He fools only himself. If you have to lie to prove your point then you don't have one.... someday he will figure it out or not....

Just calling something the way you see it is often very different from calling it the way it actually is. They need to stop manipulating facts and statistics to try to support their desires, and instead just accept things for what they really are.

i could not of said it better my self ladyblue

Oooo I like that Ladyblue!!

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for him to figure anything out...............

yea, he is following me around on e/p .. he commented on one story I made.. he has some chick he has convinced of his crap, cheerleading him on ....

Thank you.

you are very welcome.....

Excellent gypsyblu.

Those are actual facts and not just opinions, viewpoints, or beliefs about feminism.

yes they are ....

thank you gumshoejane2

absolutely

Good work gypsyblu :)

and the link between these snippets of American history and feminism is what..?