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I See This, But Education Is A Two Way Street

(I posted this in another group first, but I would have posted it here, if I had known this group existed.

The kids and their families must want and appreciate education for it to be of any use.  And I don't just mean that "You go get the di-ploma, Junior" sense that so many families have.  Educational accomplishment isn't magic, after all, it's work.)

I taught for a few years, and I loved it.  I even loved working with the kids who did not want to be there, and there were plenty. 

It caused me to change the way that I think about universal education. 

If you live in a fat country, like mine, you may come to see school as some sort of holding cell for the not yet of age instead of a place to gather knowledge and, in some ways, prepare for adulthood.  This is certainly the image that has been propagated for the last forty years by many people in many forms of media. 

Once something is considered a universal right, it easily becomes a universal doormat.  And, K-12 education in the United States is largely a very expensive doormat. 

So take it away.  What I saw leads me to believe that the kids I saw graduating high school were no better prepared for adult and work life at eighteen than they were at fourteen.  Cut them loose after eighth grade.  Those who see the value of further education should be able to opt in for high school -- with serious written commitment, so no one is wasting their time with people who are not serious.  Yes, I know children can not be held accountable if they sign a contract, but their parents who sign with them can be. 

The level of competency that I saw in most of the children leaving for college was not adequate to make the grade in even the easiest institutions, and those children were not able to even obtain associate's degrees. 

The idea that tax payers should be on the hook to propel so many of such limited ability through university is beyond me.  I think advanced education is one fo the more important ticket punches a person can get, but if it becomes universal, it will become nearly universally worthless. 

In the meantime, before that disaster happens, there are lots of ways to pay for university work, and those who show promise can usually get what they need.  They may not be able to pay for Brown for undergrad, but do they really need to?  Outside of truly technical fields, the people I have seen who have contributed the most value to organizations have come from mid-level universities.  You know, they ones where most of the students work to get through.

TheSquirrel TheSquirrel 46-50, M 38 Responses Mar 20, 2010

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Tulik, you appear to have at least one mental/emotional problem. I would not hire your angry *** if you showed up at my place of work. No one wants to have an unstable, angry person in their operation, and yes, it is easier to spot than you think.

tulick is 100% right: while i agree with toby2day's comments on the first page about the national standards (which i believe is a good thing), it's completely true that one person can only do so much. at some point--no matter how hard they try and try and try--they need to be met halfway. yes, getting an education is important, but we also need to make sure that those in charge of GIVING that education are doing their jobs too, and those in charge of employment, and so on..



pretty much every place is interested in work experience, but how can a person gain experience if they're never given an initial opportunity? you can spend all the time in the world in school, but it's also crucial that the skills you learn can actually be utilized once you get out!

Hi.



Just a few pennies in the plate.



there are various levels of work and workplace setting. As such, we have different prevailing requirements.



The corporate office is normally a "soft venue". here we can consider psycho profiling to be vital in order to have harmony. Dischord is so easily produced here.



On the shop floor, we have a totally different dynamic. If we dare to install some of the corporate office methods, we could end up with a trade union intervention.



When constructing on the engineering sites, there are little if no niceties.



I just dare anyone to even suggest protesting while working in the military. Even here, there are different psycho-profiles required for the job. Recces have to be a little, pshycho/sociophathic and there is no place for questioning the morality of killing a human being.



Here is a command given during military intervention during a civil protest action, "Riflemen 2 and 10, red shirt, two o clock, three rows back -take him out".



If you need to contemplate the morality of pulling the trigger while looking through gun sights, DON'T JOIN THE MILITARY.



Each job has its own ethical issues.



i feel that the use of psycho profiling for non-military or secret service jobs is unnecessary, slows down the hiring process and is generally, just a pain in the arse.



b

Tzech i wish you were right i wish you all were right but the sad thing is your NOT



"Placement agencies, temp angencies, even volunteer avenues using your skill set are considered viable work place experience."



NO there isn't i did the job placement BS thats where i got my 1 month internship and it did me no good because all i did was answer phones stuff envelopes and a small amount of data entry



vonluteer ha ha- again i wish well first you have to find a place that wants volunteers then you have to contend with the fact that they are only going to want you to answer phones stuff envelopes that even if you ask for more to do they won't give it to you



then HOW on earth do you GROW your skills for any of these jobs????





they want



Duties include answering incoming calls, taking messages, scheduling appointments, verifying insurance, registering patients, updating demographics, scanning, filing, and other duties as assigned



one wanted you to to complile statistical reports



, familiar with insurance, collecting co-pays and some medical terminology



cash handling skill, collections



when you have training in filing an no real experience



Duties include handling accounts payable, processing check requests, monitoring invoices for payment, answering phones for the department, ordering office supplies, maintaining central filing system, scheduling meetings, assisting with marketing research and other duties as assigned.





- Answer telephone, take messages and forward calls to voicemail.

- Copy and collate bulletins, music, fliers, brochures, etc. (when volunteer not available)

- Coordinate mailings and mail merge projects.

- Update visitor welcome packets and class information. (when volunteer not available).

- Design (or coordinate designing), print and fold brochures, fliers, posters, special event promotional boards and display tables.

- Assist with newsletter preparation – forwarding information to editor, proofreading, and working with newsletter team to prepare for mailing.

- Create and send electronic news and event updates.

- Download and forward e-mail from website.

- Make regular updates to website and other web marketing tools.

- Upload audio/visual talks, meditations, etc. to website.

- Assist with facilities and other telephone calls and coordination of bids and appointments.

- Schedule rooms for rentals and in-house groups and meetings.

- Assist with event promotion and publicity – update community calendars, send regular event information to local media, seek and research new venues, keep list of media contacts updated, create and/or coordinate creation of fliers, posters, etc., coordinate ticket sales.

- Assist with other office projects as needed (e.g. bookstore inventory, adult and youth education lesson copies and material preparation, special service preparation).

- Work with ministry team leaders to communicate information and assist connection and updates among team members and between teams.



Programs: PowerChurch, Microsoft Word, Publisher, Excel, Internet, E-mail, Constant Contact, PowerPoint



the answer is you CAN"T and last time i looked clerical work was not a technical job and ANY job anymore requires experience but there is nowhere to get it



Andrew- again you amaze me with the far fetched stuff you come up with



maybe that works in sigapore but it doesn't work here i 've seen it with my own eyes



to say nothing of half the want ads are bla bla bla and an e-mail adress or a newspaper blind box ad



and the ones that do have a company name good luck finding them google phonebook which ever



and out of the estimated 1% that actually do have an adress i would go in there ad in hand and they would say what job or position filled and before you said another word go back to what they were doing wondering why your still standing therre and then they might register your still talking to them



or the hiring managers not here or the person doing that is out sick or (put excuse here) and now i've wasted not only buss fair that adds up when you do this several times a week but i have wasted an interview outfit that now must be washed before its worn again and thats more money to the laundry mat to say nothing of wearing them out before ever working or even being interviewwed



I will also tell you that at least in my town they call you if they want you no matter the method of follow up they call you if they want you follow up has NEVER gotten my an intertview or even a conversation with a hiring manager just all of those examples after which you see my asking in big letters what am i supposed to do with that- to which you have NO real ANSWER



I have a physical disability that means i have to take an offshoot of the city bus



that is why i don't bother with apply in person ads because if i see an ad on sunday i won't be able to get there to apply till tusday and enevitably they will have filled the position ( i have had that happen with coutless ads that were call here see on sunday call on monday position filled)



Also with this bus system i'm sure there is a limit to the number of rides you can get in 1 day because of space but i know that after taking you about 2 places they start getting confused and you end up stranded somewhere wondering where they are



So that means that out of say 5 apply in person ads (the maximunm i've seen that fit abilities or interests) i would have ti pick 2 only to walk in and get what i decribed and no job either i tallied it up 1 month something like $30-40 a month it would take in busfair alone



maybe i should come to your house take whatever that equivilent is in your countries courrancy and flush it down the toilet do that to you monthly for oh about 2 years (roughly the time i have spent looking for a job) and see how YOU like it



and you wonder why "i'm not interested in listening to you" because you have yet to understand a word i said the only solutions you or anyone else has either cost $$$ or invlove me turning myself inside out for something that is a far reach on MAYBE



it is HOPELESS because employers make it that way



because i don't care if i had a traditional 6 month internship (thats the US standard) it STILL would not compete w/ employers who want 1-5 years experience



It is HOPELESS because when you follow up you get the stunts listed in my earlier comments



and it is the MOST HOPELESS because people like you have no interest in fixing the system where you live and no one in the US wants to fix it here your TOO BUSY trying to fix ME



not making sure that if colleges trade school clerical training programs have X programs or degrees they also have local internships in EVERY FEILD



Not making sure all internships are at least 6 months long or summer internships for students are avaible to freshman who have picked a major know what they want to do



not making sure that basic business eqiquite is a matter of federal law so that businesses caught pulling the stunts got fined through the nose enough to STOP IT



not making sure that when it comes to internships and inquring about career feilds places DON"T blow off students looking to negotate internships or who want to hear from the horses mouth how to best get into whatever it is or didn't you read my comment about what happens when you try to educate yourself by doing so ???



and what would all this do MAKE SURE there are enough internships to go around so less people get left out only because someone else got there first



it would MAKE SURE students didn't walk out with a degree they cannot use not because they did not learn but because of the experience requirments prevent them from getting a job

Hello again. Tzech, I agree with you. The "fit" with the company is very important. I feel that having a certain "get up and go", being able to project a calm and purposeful image, all these things count in what has become a very tough scenario for job seekers.



Tulick isn't interested in listening to me, but there ARE ways to get past the "if you didn't get an interview it means we are not interested".



For example, when I was helping my bosses with the hiring, some of the applicants would drop by anyway. Not to pound their fist on the table or yell at us and ask where their interview went, but just to give us a chance to see them.



Eg. "Hello. I applied for a job here and didn't get an interview, but is it okay if I just see what the people who work here are like? I wanted so much to work here." And they might say a few things which showed us that they had in fact taken the trouble to find out about what we did.



An alternative: "Hello, I have applied for a job here, and don't know if I will get an interview, but it looked so nice on the website that I just wanted to visit and see for myself too... etc etc"



I'm sure your husband would not be surprised at all by the fact that people like that had us pulling out their cv's and taking a second look. These were not for internship positions (those were reserved for foreign interns, so everything was decided on the strength of their CVs), but for well-paying management jobs.



One day a very pretty young Italian woman (!) walked into our office, just as we were coming back from lunch, and introduced herself. She told us that she knew we weren't taking on any more interns that year, but she had read my boss' latest book and wanted to know if she could just meet with him for a few minutes. It was a cold call; my boss knew that I was keen on all things Italian, and shot me an, "AP, did you set this up?" look. I assured him I had no idea who she was.



I sat in on that meeting. It stretched to half an hour. My boss was very cerebral and academic, and both he, his Deputy, and I found ourselves being drawn into a very mature discussion with her comparing the academic traditions of Italy and China, the thesis she was working on in Singapore, and her areas of professional interest. And yes, she *was* hoping to get an internship with us after her junior fellowship ended.



Sadly (for us), we were not able to hire her, but since we were familiar with her professional/ academic profile, and were comfortable with her mature personality, we actually made it a point to invite her as a *guest* to some of the events we organized in Singapore. I understand that she found a great job through networking at one of these events.



:)



When my boss got a call from the other institute asking whether we had heard of her, he told the potential employer -- ruefully -- that he had been trying to find a way to hire her, but hadn't been able to find a solution yet. By then this girl had made friends with all of our interns, so she was a frequent visitor at lunch-time. She used public transport, and the journey for her was at least 30 mins, so she visited whenever she could take a long lunch break.



After that great job, Signorina F went on to another great job at the World Bank. And she stayed in touch with my organization. Hope this helps. Tulick, it is NOT hopeless unless you are prepared to let the bovine ones lock you out. Focus on human relations. Make people want to help you. This girl was pretty, but she didn't have to use sex to get anything she wanted, her social skills and her strength as a researcher were enough. We had no qualms inviting her to events where she would be let loose amongst some very senior professors, policymakers, and businessmen, because we *knew* that she was capable of fitting in.



@mewold: May I tell you something scary? Americans are not only competing with India on the basis of India's low wages, but also on the very high levels of scientific and math literacy amongst educated Indians. We're not talking about "sweat shop" labour here. Eg. FreeFallWall is a young Pakistani guy, he is studying engineering, aiming for aeronautical engineering (your line, right?). He rides a bicycle to school. At 19, he wears a school uniform, which he irons himself. He polished his shoes for the first day of term. And we all know, from his posts on EP, that his English is staggeringly good. mewold, this is the reality of globalization. *hugs* -- Andrew

Tulick. I will answer:

I asked my husband and also a few other persons I know that do the 'hiring". Both for a private firm and for long term temp.

What they look for are not just what is written on the resume as degree or level of education.

They want to see experience

and before you shout some more

they want to see that you are working...getting there on time, staying for the full day, not leaving early, that you are dependable, reliable.

They also want to listen carefully to what you say, AND what you don't say.

They are looking for a 'fit' with the company.

They are looking for atittude, manners, deportment, comunication skills.



They are not looking for why you DON"T have experience. They are not looking for exuses.



they are wanting the intangible "it" that comes with confidence in your abilities, not just that you did the work in a classroom and got a degree.



When jobs are posted...most companies by charter or labor agreement MUST hire from within first.

You must also realize that techinical jobs require workplace expeience. Yes it is a circle jerk. you can't get it til you're hired, and you're not hired til you get it.

but...there are ways.

Placement agencies, temp angencies, even volunteer avenues using your skill set are considered viable work place experience.



In an economic market such as this MANY with years of exerience are also pounding the bricks for employment. Sorry...but with few exceptions were I the one hiring I would hire from that grouping first. Less work lace training required, higher degree of adaptablility normally aquired during years of work. And I don't really care what the job is...whether it be technical or managerial, or behind the counter teller in retail.



Now you can of course choose to stay angry at everyone. Or you can choose to look at other options for aquiring what you keep saying you don't have. and no one will GIVE you.



Good luck

The way things are right now, if a well educated and experianced Professional wants a job, he better be willing to compete with India's wages. Because he sure isn't going to get American wages here any more.

well for all your supposed skills you STILL missed the poin of EVERYTHING i said



you like EVERYONE else can 't answer any of my questions



so you tell me smart guy



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



"well we are conducting interviews if you did not get called for after one of those i guess you didn't make it through that process"?????? I've met people who speak poor English with horribly thick accents who could do better



and the guy has hung up the phone before i can even figure out what he said ??



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



Or the applicant that googled the address given in the ad called them and asked for the contact person named in the ad and was asked are you a doctor or a nurse (it was a medical office) and when the person asked is this the medical office with the ad in the paper they are given to the contact person who acts dazed and confused and says yes they put an ad in a long time ago but the position has been filled



yet this was on a Wednesday and the ad posted in the Sunday paper but to ad insult to injury or perhaps it should be said stupidity to ignorance the ad appeared again 3 weeks later



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



Ad says X center looking for receptionist apply at community action X (a totally different place which is odd) applicant mails resume and cover letter calls to follow up person answering the phone seems to at least be aware of the ad they ask to speak to the hiring manger or whom ever is in charge of hiring for this position only to find out the HR director in charge of such things is on maternity leave and actually at a completely different site "but i can transfer you to someone in HR" where no one was answering their phone- that is after the applicant was told their best chance was to submit application info (resume and cover letter)



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



How bout follow up e-mails that go unanswered or one that got an auto response stating the person would have limited e-mail from X to X but gave a phone number if you needed immediate assistanceThe problem: the limited e-mail access was to begin 2 days before the ad began running and e-mail was how you were to transmit resume and cover letter rendering the phone number given practically useless because the person would have no real way of viewing your application information



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??

sends resume cover letter and writing sample to ad X via e-mail is given response to expect call from him man is polite conscientious and sets up interview for X day X time applicant arrives interview is conducted applicant asked to do writing sample based on their particular content supposed to take minutes to be sent to him over the weekend applicant spends hours giving quality sample and submitting it on time only to hear nothing from the interviewer for a week things get even worse when applicant tries to call the mans office upon googling the given address a number is found when person finally answers the phone they answer 4 east pharmacy like it was a hospital no where near anything like where or what they interviewed for applicant returns to their computer goes to the companies own web site only to find the same number with a toll free prefix as a last resort applicant goes to the maze from hell known as their local phone book which many stopped using when you could google addresses because of its messed up categories jumbled organization and missing info there they are greeted with not 1 but 2 phone numbers for company 1st 1 bogus and finally applicant after all that agony gets them on the line only for the man they interviewed with to be in a meeting applicant would try 4 out of 5 working days of the next week to get person needed on the phone only to be passed around to several others in the office and receive no phone call or e-mail leaving applicant feeling rather like they were dealing with the guy who hit it and quit it





WHAT THE HELL DO YOU DO WITH THAT HOW DO YOU "FIT IN" TO THAT



you MISSED that my ONLY problem with stufffing envelopes was that in my job shadwoing experience i was supposed to be seeing what they do which i didn't see sitting in a corner stuffing envelopes thats WHY i had the second one at all because i learned NOTHING durring the first



you MISSED that i have NO problem with stuffing envelopes or answer phones BUT when your at an internship and ALL you did was stuff envelopes and answer phones YOU CAN"T GET A CLERICAL JOB BECUSE



they want



Duties include answering incoming calls, taking messages, scheduling appointments, verifying insurance, registering patients, updating demographics, scanning, filing, and other duties as assigned



one wanted you to to complile statistical reports



, familiar with insurance, collecting co-pays and some medical terminology



cash handling skill, collections



when you have training in filing an no real experience



Duties include handling accounts payable, processing check requests, monitoring invoices for payment, answering phones for the department, ordering office supplies, maintaining central filing system, scheduling meetings, assisting with marketing research and other duties as assigned.





- Answer telephone, take messages and forward calls to voicemail.

- Copy and collate bulletins, music, fliers, brochures, etc. (when volunteer not available)

- Coordinate mailings and mail merge projects.

- Update visitor welcome packets and class information. (when volunteer not available).

- Design (or coordinate designing), print and fold brochures, fliers, posters, special event promotional boards and display tables.

- Assist with newsletter preparation – forwarding information to editor, proofreading, and working with newsletter team to prepare for mailing.

- Create and send electronic news and event updates.

- Download and forward e-mail from website.

- Make regular updates to website and other web marketing tools.

- Upload audio/visual talks, meditations, etc. to website.

- Assist with facilities and other telephone calls and coordination of bids and appointments.

- Schedule rooms for rentals and in-house groups and meetings.

- Assist with event promotion and publicity – update community calendars, send regular event information to local media, seek and research new venues, keep list of media contacts updated, create and/or coordinate creation of fliers, posters, etc., coordinate ticket sales.

- Assist with other office projects as needed (e.g. bookstore inventory, adult and youth education lesson copies and material preparation, special service preparation).

- Work with ministry team leaders to communicate information and assist connection and updates among team members and between teams.



Programs: PowerChurch, Microsoft Word, Publisher, Excel, Internet, E-mail, Constant Contact, PowerPoint







NOW DO YOU GWT IT ???????????????





and that doesn't include that in addition to MS office they want publisher, photo shop, adobe applications (didn't say which ones) qucick books, dreamweaver, MS projects adobe PDF,



not to mention the specalty programs only gotten through job experrience eglesoft, dintrix, correl applications (even when googled i can't figure out WFT that is) you'll see in that last ad they want expereince with some church software



Even if i could afford to pay my local career center for the classes to learn all the public consumption PC programs wanted the info would be obsolite by the time i was done and thwy would have come up with something else they wanted i didn't have



and YES i do know how important spelling is on a job ap or a cover letter I DO NOT make spelling errors on such things but this is a social networking site not a job application it is not a site also used for postying jobs or resumes



and you wonder why the rude tone- i'm not a moron so don't treat me like one



and with all the comments here that i alone have posted ALL anyone can come up with including you is how i'm the probelm which i can say unabashedly is beyond NOT TRUE!

Hello again (sorry TheSquirrel!). I find Equis' comment very thought-provoking. The idea of encouraging significant numbers of students to devote their time and resources to an associate degree earned between 9th and 12th grade was total culture shock for me.



:O



Is that supposed to be a terminal qualification?



If so, then potentially you will have a problem competing globally with countries like Singapore, Finland, and South Korea, where we stream students according to ability, in order to maximize their potential, and from the age of 13 or so they are being groomed for an "academic track" (ie university) or a more vocational kind of education.



So even if a classic university education is not suitable for you (in our system), after the equivalent of 12th grade the expectation is still that you will remain in higher education for another few years.



In Germany, even a basic Bachelors degree is hardly considered a terminal qualification. German universities are producing graduates who have the equivalent of a Masters PLUS a great deal of programmed "Abitur" work experience.



I've seen the power of that German system; the son of some German friends came to Singapore to do part of his compulsory work experience. He was an engineering student; had NO problems with his internship because he had already done an industrial attachment back in Germany. He went home to complete his degree, came back as a fully-qualified engineer, and found a great job -- on local pay and benefits terms -- very quickly in a difficult labour market. I welcome foreigners who compete with our own people for jobs because I think it keeps our people on their toes.



That is what the US is competing with. Here in Singapore we've just given secondary and even PRIMARY schools financial and technical support to set up media labs. One primary school got over USD$100,000! So you have 11-year-olds who are in an academic stream, but also signing up for classes in video reporting, TV journalism, and simple TV production. And the guys teaching them are not mainstream schoolteachers, they are industry professionals. The idea (according to the Ministry), is that by the time the children have to decide whether they want to maybe specialize in mass comm, they can have as many as 3 - 4 good projects in their portfolio/ on their cv. If that is what they want...



Perhaps one solution is to beef up the quality of general education, so that students are properly prepared at Grade 12 for a few more years of quality higher education, whether it be a classic university degree or something more vocational.



Just wondering...



AP

Hello again tulick. I did my very my best to ignore the rude tone with which you began your response to me, so that I could read your words properly (as I did the first time round), and I will *not* answer you in the same tone.



tulick, everybody knows that getting your foot in the door is very difficult. I don't think a single person here was trying to argue with you about that. First I want to be very firm in telling you that "****" does in fact happen in Singapore even though we do know what JOB TRAINING is. Our Per Capita Idiocy Rates are as high as anywhere else in the world.



The whole reason why my job scope began (informally) to include "babysitting interns", was that some of the bosses in the layer of management just above me had no idea what to do with interns. Or they were even resentful to have to take on an intern.



That said, tulick, even with the near-fairytale conditions for my interns, it was clear to us ("us" meaning: Their bosses, supervisors, and support staff such as receptionists and PAs) that some of the interns didn't perform as well as the others.



The point you may have missed is that it was a level playing field for those interns. All were "winners" according to their CV, but we also let some pretty impressive-sounding people go without offering them a job at the end of their internship because they got... "stuck" when it came to practical things. They weren't resourceful. They were rude to our "menial" staff. Or they had surprisingly poor phone skills.



In my humble opinion, at all levels -- whether people are job seekers, interns, middle management, or have Buddha Status in the organization with their own PA and a personal office with a private library in it --, the basic ability to get things done and pull other staff onto the same page with them (this is called "leadership") is what sets people apart.



tulick, you made me smile when I read what you wrote about stuffing envelopes. Because as a Conference Organizer, I have stuffed thousands of envelopes! I can make a photocopying machine staple and sort every which way.



:)



I sense that you may be smirking here, but the point is that I was very well paid. In fact, the minimum qualification for my job was a good Master's degree; I got hired because (i) I was a fully-qualified lawyer and (ii) also (I was told, much later) because it seems that the top bosses felt comfortable with me at the job interview. I was the lead organizer for some of the projects and followed my bosses into meetings with PMs, Ministers, CEOs, and Professors. When my job was menial, it was very menial. When it wasn't, I was writing speeches for my bosses or participating fully in meetings where I was helping to brainstorm strategies. Or -- yes! -- helping my bosses to screen CVs and decide who got an interview, and who didn't.



Please don't take this as a personal insult or some kind of attack, tulick, but what various people here seem to be trying to tell you here, is that getting a job or doing well professionally has a lot to do with attitude. Stuffing an envelope correctly is important -- one of our Project Directors cocked that up once and it nearly cost him his career --, and believe me, knowing how to take phone calls on behalf of your organization is an important skill.



Thing is, tulick, people you work for don't always take the trouble to explain to you what they are looking out for when they assign tasks to you. I was paid so well in that job *precisely* because of my ability to punch gently past barriers raised by lazy incompetent blockheads and reach somebody who DID in fact know the answer.



If the "big" photocopy machine began to choke or get indigestion on the eve of an important conference we had been organizing for eight months, my bosses knew that they never even had to know about it. So what if the receptionist who was in charge of the photocopier had gone home? I remember more than one night where I was alone in the office, with tons of things to photocopy (and getting phone calls from my boss who was stressing about his Big Speech), and trying to help an outsourced customer service technician talk me through opening this panel and that tray, and basically getting my hands dirty.



The situation was not "fair"; I was doing my job well, but when a CEO's assistant calls in last-minute revisions to the printed copy of the speech, I can't very well say, "Hell no, call me in the morning, I was supposed to be home two hours ago and the lady who does the photocopying has gone home"...



Seriously, tulick... I feel so bad for you, because I can sense your frustration, and it is real. I respect you for trying well past the point where I might have given up. Please use every opportunity, every resource available to you. And if it's not readily available, just GET what you need. I made a very lucrative career out of dealing with difficult people and doing menial things when it was necessary; it IS possible to get past the maddening "... if you wish to continue to hold, press *..." or the bovine, "Huh? My boss is having a meeting with your boss tomorrow? How do you spell the name?" (when we had flown 12,000 km to be in that country and I had 3 faxes in my "travel" file confirming the appointment).



:D



Good luck, tulick! Please watch that spelling of yours; during the years when I was screening CVs for my bosses, we never even bothered to read anything which was mis-spelled. This sounds trivial, I know, and it was our loss, but that's how it is. If you stuff envelopes, do it perfectly, and leave a good impression . If you have to sit and listen to somebody answer phones, pay close attention and try and see what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong. When I was a trainee lawyer, I was not allowed to take calls from clients for the first three months; you are supposed to just listen to how your boss and his PA handle the calls.



TheSquirrel, sorry for taking up so much real estate on your thread.



AP

You are a beautiful example of patience. God knows I need that on a regular basis.

and again i have to start out with can you read



resourcefulness only works if you can GET an internship at all but when NO ONE wants interns or they want them to ALREADY have the skills internships are designed to TEACH



Or when you get to things like my clerical job shodowing experiences where alll i did was stuff envelops for 2 hours rather than watch what others were doing see the computer programs that were being ued or the other one where again all i did for the 2 hours i was scedualed to be there was watch the girl answer phones and sort mail



Or when i did my 1 month internship as part of a 6 month fastrack clerical program to getting a job and all they would let me do is sort mail, answer the phone, input data into excel the secretary had no idea what to do with an intern there were no more things i could ask to do not that they would have let me and no one had time to answer the questions i had



so when i do my resume and it says sorted mail, answered phone, data entry i can't lie and say i did other things i can't bolster that up because thats what i did and they want all these other skills



to make a good coverletter you have to have something to put in it ideally the more experience the better but again when no on wants interns and no one will teach them if they have them



in ther clerical feild interns get the most meadal tasks answering phones stuffing envelopes and thats usually it its busy work to keep them out of someone doing a "real job's" hair



and that has nothing to do with job ads you answer and they say what job or when you follow up you get that same respose



or when they spout gibberish "



well we are conducting interviews if you did not get called for after one of those i guess you didn't make it through that process"?????? I



've met people who speak poor English with horribly thick accents who could do better and the guy has hung up the phone before i can even figure out what he said ??



when you follow up and they have no time to talk to you or say and i quote thanks for the follow up



It has nothing to do with employers who can't put their new employee on the e-mail cercit or give them a phne code or tell them ALL of their job resposibilities and thats on the EMPLOYER not the inter or employee



it has nothing to do with what happens when new employee goes to supervisor asks where are older records for this and the supervisor doesn't have sense enough to know they don't need therm the person needs to be told to do something else



the new employee went streight to the horses mouth and thats what they got



the thing is andrew that **** doesn't happen in singapore because they know what JOB TRAINING is



people get FIRED for pulling stunts like the ones listed here



if only it was like that in the US then maybe i would have a chance

Hello TheSquirrel, thank you for this thoughtful and well-written story, as well as your comments (which were equally thoughtful).



I am a Singaporean so I won't be commenting on the US education system in general. The debate I am following here about the acceptability of "universal standards" would be moot in my system. Our educational system is based on universal standards; 12-year-olds (even those who are home-schooled) sit for a nationally set- and moderated exam which is like SATS for getting into a regular, fast, or slow stream in secondary school.



Schools may only use textbooks which have been approved by our Ministry of Education. This has nothing to do with politics; it is a question of quality control. My country is secular and we do not want schools using textbooks which teach creationism. I understand that the MOE even has a department which helps schools and teachers to develop test papers; it is more like a free consultancy service -- very professional -- rather than anything resembling "Big Brother" meddling.



One difference I do notice between our system and the US system is the approach to testing. I tutored an 11-year-old intensively for the Primary School Leaving Examination (PSLE). The science and maths papers were so tricky that it shocked me silly. I had trouble with some of the questions because they were so challenging.



Eg. for the maths, the students don't only have to come up with the correct answer, in figures; for certain sections of the exam they have to use WORDS to describe clearly how they arrived at their answer. Some questions did not include enough information for the student to arrive at a definitive answer, and the students had to give written answers, in English, explaining why they thought that to be the case.



Similarly, for the science paper -- my student and I worked through many "past questions", for practice and also as a framework for teaching --, there were sections in the paper where the kids had to articulate their reasons for coming to a particular conclusion. If their answer was based on an inference, they were required to explain this inference in words.



These kids are eleven or twelve, TheSquirrel. My understanding of this approach to education is that we in Singapore don't only want to produce workers who know the answers, they have to be able to communicate what they know to others in a way that is convincing, and can be understood. It is very different from the days when I myself was in school, and everything was based on rote-learning.



Sorry for this ultra-long hijack! I do feel that the approach my country is taking requires such a high level of resources that we could not do this without a great deal of "standardization" (or even central control... ). I remember how bewildered I was when I saw a sample SAT test; it had never occurred to me that any university entrance exam could be based on a multiple choice format! In my country the last two years of "high school" (ie ages 17 - 18) are done university-style for the brightest students. Meaning, students attend lectures in lecture halls, and have sessions in small classes with tutors. And they are graded on the basis of project work and 2,000 word written essays.



Tulick, I hear you. It seems that this story has pressed quite a few of your buttons. For what it's worth, I worked for six years in middle management, where one of my unwritten duties was to help my bosses to manage the interns. It was a good match with my personality; interns were forever popping into my office, for tea, sympathy, a chat, or simply to sit quietly and do *their* work as I concentrated on mine.



My only point is that this gave me an opportunity to observe people who are new to a job, and who in fact have little or no work experience. You don't have to agree with me, tulick, but I found that in any given work situation, some of the more resourceful interns never seemed to have any problems, but some of them would get stuck and seem to have no clue how to solve problems, or any clue as to how to get other people to want to help them.



As far as I am concerned, the interns were operating in a level playing field. All came highly recommended, from top schools, and all had incredible CVs. It was really striking how important the soft skills such as: "individual resourcefulness", "people skills", and good old '"creativity" were. I remember one intern in particular who stayed back to help a PA finish her work for a difficult boss, and a few weeks later SHE was helping him with something involving the bosses.



Take care --



Andrew

This is why your people will have security in the future that will escape the majority of my childrens' generation here in the USA. I use Sigapore math books to supplement my childrens' studies because I know you guys get it right. Thanks for the insightful information.

This has been a very interesting thread.

and i have to start out with can you read



yes i KNOW that a job is a contract written or no but so was the person applying for that program or the examples i gave of the various licienses yeah they want something in return someone who can do such and such but ordinary people who fullfill the application requirments and licence reqirements expect something in return as well the licince admission to the prgram we singed up for or whatever it is



as for the person on payroll who doesn'tr get their assigments done that has nothing to do with what i presented here at all but i have 2 words for you JOB TRAINING



as for how i fit into this mess well lets see i keep applying for jobs accroding to instructions following up like every job placemnt place and every expert says do and get NOTHING



as for my anger well A- gee ya think and B- they never see it if they NEVER interview you and the interviews i've had anger goes away from the exitment of having an interview so that doesn't even apply



so you tell me smart guy



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



"well we are conducting interviews if you did not get called for after one of those i guess you didn't make it through that process"?????? I've met people who speak poor English with horribly thick accents who could do better



and the guy has hung up the phone before i can even figure out what he said ??



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



Or the applicant that googled the address given in the ad called them and asked for the contact person named in the ad and was asked are you a doctor or a nurse (it was a medical office) and when the person asked is this the medical office with the ad in the paper they are given to the contact person who acts dazed and confused and says yes they put an ad in a long time ago but the position has been filled



yet this was on a Wednesday and the ad posted in the Sunday paper but to ad insult to injury or perhaps it should be said stupidity to ignorance the ad appeared again 3 weeks later



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



Ad says X center looking for receptionist apply at community action X (a totally different place which is odd) applicant mails resume and cover letter calls to follow up person answering the phone seems to at least be aware of the ad they ask to speak to the hiring manger or whom ever is in charge of hiring for this position only to find out the HR director in charge of such things is on maternity leave and actually at a completely different site "but i can transfer you to someone in HR" where no one was answering their phone- that is after the applicant was told their best chance was to submit application info (resume and cover letter)



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??



How bout follow up e-mails that go unanswered or one that got an auto response stating the person would have limited e-mail from X to X but gave a phone number if you needed immediate assistanceThe problem: the limited e-mail access was to begin 2 days before the ad began running and e-mail was how you were to transmit resume and cover letter rendering the phone number given practically useless because the person would have no real way of viewing your application information



WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN I FOLLLOW UP AND GET THIS??

sends resume cover letter and writing sample to ad X via e-mail is given response to expect call from him man is polite conscientious and sets up interview for X day X time applicant arrives interview is conducted applicant asked to do writing sample based on their particular content supposed to take minutes to be sent to him over the weekend applicant spends hours giving quality sample and submitting it on time only to hear nothing from the interviewer for a week things get even worse when applicant tries to call the mans office upon googling the given address a number is found when person finally answers the phone they answer 4 east pharmacy like it was a hospital no where near anything like where or what they interviewed for applicant returns to their computer goes to the companies own web site only to find the same number with a toll free prefix as a last resort applicant goes to the maze from hell known as their local phone book which many stopped using when you could google addresses because of its messed up categories jumbled organization and missing info there they are greeted with not 1 but 2 phone numbers for company 1st 1 bogus and finally applicant after all that agony gets them on the line only for the man they interviewed with to be in a meeting applicant would try 4 out of 5 working days of the next week to get person needed on the phone only to be passed around to several others in the office and receive no phone call or e-mail leaving applicant feeling rather like they were dealing with the guy who hit it and quit it



HOW DO YOU FIT INTO THAT ?????



another question for you WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU TRY TO EDUCATE YOURSELF BY TALKING TO PEOPLE IN THE FEILD YOU WANT AND THIS IS WHAT YOU GET



finally got the job shadowing things i've wanted for years now i wish i hadn't



set me up with a guy who has published books and only done FREELANCE work for newspapers



he kept telling me webased jobs might be the way to go



had no idea where the market was headed as far as what jobs might be around in say 5 years



his only solution to the need for 2 years experience in verious things was get pubilshed



which he was SUPISED to find out when i mentioned the jobs wanted that or even the ones that said ed. may be substiuted for experience and i said it must mean masters level because the autimated thing always says your not qualifed



and because all he has published is non fiction and fiction i couldn't even pick his brain on book publishing because pertry is a differeent animal he knew nothing about





then this magazone person is all you need to get with and editor you need to get an internship and how tough that was in my town with all the J school kids



how editors will tear it appart and put it back together supposedly better



how magaxines are bathroom reading people won't read things that are too long



suggested i look at big companies that have magazines or marketing depaprtments ad agencies (mentioned one of the entry positions at matha stewart magazine was doing the table of contence)



nothing about spesific internships in the area said wow them with a good query letter but nothing about what makes a good one other than pitching stories ( and by that she means jounalistic stories) because peopple will do comontary for free



that being versitle was the key



get an ap style manual learn as much as you can about web design



well and this persons advice



get to know the web back end of it there are programs you can download



yeah like i told her download and dial up not happening even if and when i get other internet or even a new PC i am not glogging limited memory with such things



and whether she belives it or not tinker skills won't cut it



find a magazine you like notice their tone what they write on and on



thats wonderful but as i told the job placement advisor that went with me i can't afford that and when she mentioned the library i almost screamed how would you like me to yank $4 (bus fare) out of your walet and flush it down the toilet evertyime you wanna go look at a magazine and i've never seen one that i liked



i cannot belive that she had someone come to her and ask her about places to look for internships and had NO specific places that currently offer them



gave some horrible examples of inqury letters but nothing about good ones exept pitching stories and some chick who complemented something she herself had written



i mean do you really have to hold a gun to someones head to get detailed spesific information ???



to say nothning of i feel like i'm being lied to because she told the advisor how bad the market was but in sept. they had an ad out looking for a web devloper



ishe acts like i should basically wirite inqury letters begging for an internship but i know that goes NOWHERE i got the job i have by answering an ad looking for workers i got an interview last year at some phaqmplet for Dr.s place the same way



one says be versitile someone else says find your nitche



and if i'm not being lied to then there is a giant peice of the puzzle missing



and i'm left with nothing



just like the 3rd person i talked to was a newspaper columist



who was talking about how easy it was in his opinion to transition from english degree to jounalism



well come to find out he had worked as a stringer (freelace intern reporter type person who covers what no one else has time for) in HS and college covering all the sports



and he had been out of state was a corrispondent in DC for smaller surrounding papers



had worked in smaller papers in the state he confessed he's had an internship somewhere (out of state)



he suggesfted a jounaism class to familerize myself w/ newspaper style



he likes my stuff but says no one will publish it because its too long



chided me for sentences that were too long not gramticaly in correct just too complicated "short and punchy"



said the op ed peices in the paper were 1.5 paragrapghs of my 3 papge works



says they are abostarct and i need to say this is what i think and here's why



yet i can't believe that none of these people see the vaule of national flavor to a local paper



the moronic magazine person can't even tell me of places in town that have internships other than try ad firms marketing departments companies with magiazines/news letters instead of SPESIFIC internships avaiable



the moronic colimist lives here workes here and can't even tell me HOW TO APPLY for his newspspers own internship eventhough they brought it up



he is too stupid to know it is not jounalistic classes its DEGREES (condsidering the huge J school in town) that my options are a BA or MA in jounalism the former being redundant consideering my BA in english



i can't even get into the MA program because i have no one to write 3 letters of recomendation



i couldn't get the 1100 GRE score wanted for those with a 3.0 to 3.2 if i cheated nevermind whatever they would want for the higher GPA i graduated with



and my resume has nothing on it they would want to see as opposed to someone with 4 years HS and/or college spent on their school paper



oh and clerical is even worse its like dealing with drug additcs who want MORE MORE MORE



some want 3-5 years exoperience some 1-2 i have less than all of it



in addition to wanting the office suite they want publisher quick books photoshop outlook one ad wanted experiece with PC and MAC experience



oh and it gets better i have seen ads requesting the followiing things that are for bussiness use only that are NOT in the local career center or any local one and therefore must be got on the job



corel applications, dtentrix or dentrex, eglesoft and some (i kid you not) church organizng software



are you pulling your hair out because i am someone else wanted adobe applications didn't say which ones



and again i come back to my question (ritorical for you) WTF am I SUPPOSED TO DO FOR WORK?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I wrote a story in this group some time ago. My ideas have changed slightly since then. I agree with pretty much everything the author has written here. Howerer, now, Industry and Business here has become globalized. Our kids who persivere and obtain good educations, have another problem and I have no answer for it other than more government interferance. We are known for the excelence of our Universities. But so are the schools in India, and England, and Germany, and China, and many other places. Many of these graduates are willing to come here and work for much less than home grown professionals. The Government facilitates this with special tax brakes for Businesses who bring these young Professionals to the U. S. Our home grown Graduates are aften still left out in the cold. So, now what do we do?

I am not sure to whom you were speaking in the last one, but I suspect me. I read your long post. Here is what I think:



You spend a lot of time agonizing over why the world does not work the way you think that it should. You have the energy. Why not use it to learn how you must fit, yet fit, into the world. It works the way it does, whether you like it or not, and does not care about your needs or feelings, only what you can do for it right now. If you are not willing to cooperate -- that includes figuring out what that means -- they have nothing to exchange with you.



About giving. When a company or person gives someone a job, they are expecting certain things in return. There is an exchange. It is part of the contract, verbal or written. No one gives you something because you need it. They give it to you because you can do something in return. If you can't, they don't want you.



Would you want someone on your payroll who does not, or can not, figure out a way to get her assignments done?



If you are angry about your situation and you wear your anger all the time, no one in their right mind will want you. They have enough to worry about already. If they already have you, they will do what they must to limit the damage you do until you leave. That is the way it is, except in government offices and schools.



I am done.

Sorry it took a while to get back.

I wasn't referring to the level of education of the parents, or anyone else for that matter. But..to the ones that think a standardized test is the truest measure of what has been learned.



You know that the little fill in the bubble tests are not the be all to end all in evaluating education or mastered skills or knowledge.

really- READ the thing then and DON"T YOU EVER CALL ME LAZY OR STUPID AGAIN



think of this you cannot be a producvie member of society when you answer ads for jobs and then follow up and the perso says what job?



when they come to the phone at all and spout ununderstandble giberish



when you try to follow up and they say they have no time to talk to you and just send your application information



when they reply to follow up "thanks for the follow up"



When you have neither the $$ or the transpiortation to apply in person



when they want more experience but you were put into a program w/ a one month internship because thats what agency X you were working with wwould pay for (this is what i mean about manditory internship lengths) and even if it were 6 months they want anywhere from 1-5 years and this is for office work



as for your assursion that i want people to "give" me things or everything think of it like this



when you complte the requirements for a HS diploma they "GIVE" you the diploma



when you fullfill the requirments for a degree they "GIVE" you the degree



theorticly at least you apply for jobs you are qualifed for and someone will "GIVE" you a job



when you fullfill the requirments for a drivers licience, fishing licience, boating licience, hunting licience, business licience you expect to be "given" the licience



that is no differnent than the ponit i was trying to make with the person who applied for that program they fullfilled EVERYTHING they were supposded to, did everything as asked and inquired about the correspondence they recived and still were lied to because the supervior CAN"T take care of their employees

tulic - Hey. You are right. It will take another visit to get through your post, but I look forward to it. You have a spirit that will not be ignored. I suspect you have more going for you than you think.

redtailfree48 -



No government mandate of training will work. Mandated training does not change the person supposedly getting trained. He still has all the accumulated attitude problems that he had before. I have seen a lot of people over the years whose purpose is to get over. Get over on The Man, other little guys, it doesn't matter. Have you ever seen a person in a protected job? My personal observations leave me saying that, at best, they are pathetic. They do less work, and of lower quality, because they know that they are practically untouchable.



And yes, money diverted to government mandated training do reduce the number of jobs precisely because that money is spent according to political considerations, not the needs of the business. Whether you like it or not, the management of most businesses actually want their companies to grow and remain profitable.



Also, I never believe that any state has any money to do anything. That goes for the federal government as well.



Interesting how you switch so quickly from education to ranting about corporate America. If you want to talk about that, start another post and send me a note with a link. I would especially like to talk about the affects of governmental actions on corporations and the movement of jobs overseas.

you seem to think that the states are going to have the funding when edducation is funded by the federal government? When busch signed the bill no child left behind, guess what? it wasn't funded nice huh? there are alot of blunders too many to list that this bull..... artist pulled too. Giving cooperate a tax break so it would trickle down to the little people? Nope it went into there pockets and screw the little people. Its time that Government got a handle on this mess and start making these companies accountable for there tax breaks before it is handed to them. Transparency is key, same goes for the wall street glutney. Bail out wall street so they can go to a ***** show and spend over 400.000 for the screw balls that left everyone pennyless

Mandatory training is the key thing that this adminsitrayion is putting into place, who dsaid anythng about OTJT would evaporate jobs? are you kidding me? It was eliminated in the Busch Adminsitration to save cooperate money and take the money out of peoples pockets that are trying to get the training in the field they want to work in. I've trained interns for years and they turnwed out better than those who went to college to get a BA in this feield and you are saying that it will evaporate jobs? Why not stop the exsport of jobs then we woldn't have to worry about losing jobs in the first place, another Busch blunder in the past 8 years. heres this President meaning Busch saying that outsourcing jobs is good for the economy, is he for real? good fo the economy?

sure when it goes into the pockets of cooperate that don't have to pay fair wages over seas. Think about what you are saying here, people are getting fed up with losing everything they have worked so hard for and to watch it wash away along with the outsourced jobs overseas. people have got to get a handle on this and tell congress somting has to be done, stopping exsports of jobs, increase exsports of our goods and tighten up the boaders so our jobs aren't sucked into oblivien

well if thats what you think then read this and tell me i'm wrong



Yes i know the longest ep story ever written hang in there it might be worth it



I have had it up to here and back again with employers who take out want ads, employers who claim to want employees but the contact people are never available to come to the phone until the position is filled, yet all experts will tell you to follow up, make sure that employer knows your name. YEAH RIGHT



Or when you get them on the phone or get them to answer an e-mail you get unintelligible gibberish like one such man looking for a receptionist who said to an applicant wanting to discuss their interest in the position who was told "well we are conducting interviews if you did not get called for after one of those i guess you didn't make it through that process"?????? I've met people who speak poor English with horribly thick accents who could do better



Instead of saying we are conducting interviews if you were not called you did not make it through our screening process or taking the applicants name and checking it against a list of those to be interviewed



Or the applicant that googled the address given in the ad called them and asked for the contact person named in the ad and was asked are you a doctor or a nurse (it was a medical office) and when the person asked is this the medical office with the ad in the paper they are given to the contact person who acts dazed and confused and says yes they put an ad in a long time ago but the position has been filled what were you stoned helping yourself to the vikiden!!!



yet this was on a Wednesday and the ad posted in the Sunday paper but to ad insult to injury or perhaps it should be said stupidity to ignorance the ad appeared again 3 weeks later



One business even took it upon themselves to get snippy with a worker at a job placement agency as they attempted to follow up for a client on the status of their application hey b-ch your working for a business try and act like it!



How bout the inevitable transfer to the wrong person



Another scenario- Ad says X center looking for receptionist apply at community action X (a totally different place which is odd) applicant mails resume and cover letter calls to follow up person answering the phone seems to at least be aware of the ad they ask to speak to the hiring manger or whom ever is in charge of hiring for this position only to find out the HR director in charge of such things is on maternity leave and actually at a completely different site "but i can transfer you to someone in HR" where no one was answering their phone- that is after the applicant was told their best chance was to submit application info (resume and cover letter)



Here's a hint when someone with that kind of responsibility goes on something as long as maternity leave a replacement should be waiting in the wings and the company phone lackey should know their name if the entire HR department is picking up the slack the company phone lackey should be knowledgeable enough to say so



How bout follow up e-mails that go unanswered or one that got an auto response stating the person would have limited e-mail from X to X but gave a phone number if you needed immediate assistance



The problem: the limited e-mail access was to begin 2 days before the ad began running and e-mail was how you were to transmit resume and cover letter rendering the phone number given practically useless because the person would have no real way of viewing your application information



The applicant that calls about a particular telephone job person they need to speak to is in a meeting they subsequently receive and e-mail where they are told of an information session at X time on X day of the week to include post session interview and on that day every week after if that time did not suit applicant they were welcome to make an appointment because a possible conflict to to the season applicant e-mails person back first asking for an exact address and an estimate on how long the proceedings take then asking about viability of job after that date due to their possible conflict and stating they would be happy to attend another informational meeting or make themselves available at the contact persons convenience



Applicant received no response



Then there are the ads that are misleading or missing information ads that continually leave out things like company name address or phone number who routinely only have e-mail or fax numbers and too many of these are BROKEN!



Of those that contain either a company name or only an address too many times when googled come back to complexes where you have to guess which one you are looking for and if you happen to dial the wrong one you get the dazed idiot like the medical office above that doesn't have the presence of mind to say you must have the wrong place



How bout this except from ad- "apply with resume and cover letter call for an appointment" when applicant called for clarification as to how they were supposed to apply for this job they were given an e-mail address to send their info to 2 days 3 tries and 5 spellings of the persons name by the poor phone lackey it was finally sent and in 2 days they were to call for an appointment



Applicant called after the elapsed time goes in for the testing an interview only to be asked were they having transportation problems and couldn't get in the week before that they had droves of people come in then and turns out the position had been filled oh and they were a TEMP AGENCY



So the applicant wasted a trip for nothing instead of being told when they called that the position had been filled but we are a temp agency and you can come down and fill out the paperwork to get on our service to say nothing of the FALSE ADVERTISING that stated they had several positions open yet every time applicant mention the ad while in their building it was referred to as the clerical position including by the interviewer who the applicant wanted to justifiably b-ch slap when he mentioned the number of people who applied YOU DON'T THINK IT COULD HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE SEVERAL POSITIONS YOU ADVERTISED WHEN YOU ONLY HAD 1-F*CKWITT



Another misleading case in point large local university posts to writing ads 1 for a creative writer other for a reporter both detail the type of writing wanted and play up the exiting details of the job and tell interested persons to apply at www.- you get the idea however upon going to said website only then does the applicant see that it is duel listed in 2 departments meaning there is only 1 position and then and only then do you see the need for a degree and multiple years experience



Instead of for full job description or for further details and to apply go to www.



Interviews are no better it seems as seen by the temp agency example but there are others



Applicant called in for interview at close of interview applicant and interviewer discuss how the former should follow up interviewer says they will call in a week to inform them of whether or not they got the job- a week and a half later they call and discover the position has been filled and 2.5 months later receive a formal rejection letter- why send it if your going to wait THAT long it that point your just being sadistic to say nothing of wasting paper



Another one for the patients trying record books applicant sends resume cover letter and writing sample to ad X via e-mail is given response to expect call from him man is polite conscientious and sets up interview for X day X time applicant arrives interview is conducted applicant asked to do writing sample based on their particular content supposed to take minutes to be sent to him over the weekend



applicant spends hours giving quality sample and submitting it on time only to hear nothing from the interviewer for a week things get even worse when applicant tries to call the mans office upon googling the given address a number is found when person finally answers the phone they answer 4 east pharmacy like it was a hospital no where near anything like where or what they interviewed for



applicant returns to their computer goes to the companies own web site only to find the same number with a toll free prefix as a last resort applicant goes to the maze from hell known as their local phone book which many stopped using when you could google addresses because of its messed up categories jumbled organization and missing info there they are greeted with not 1 but 2 phone numbers for company 1st 1 bogus and finally applicant after all that agony gets them on the line only for the man they interviewed with to be in a meeting



applicant would try 4 out of 5 working days of the next week to get person needed on the phone only to be passed around to several others in the office and receive no phone call or e-mail leaving applicant feeling rather like they were dealing with the guy who hit it and quit it



AND IT GETS WORSE-



What can be worse than all this you ask the Friends colleagues acquittance's and members of the general public who can find every and i do mean EVERY reason and excuse for businesses not to act like businesses



For the class A bozo above the following excuses were given "maybe these were the busiest 2 weeks for the company"



oh and a personal favorite- maybe you should have gotten his business card AS IF THAT MAKES IT OK FOR HIM TO HAVE THE WRONG INFO ON HIS WEBSITE AND IN THE PHONE BOOK To say nothing of this person is making the likely untrue assumption that the business card would be more accurate than the companies own website or the phone book- based on past behavior that's NONSENSE



When discussing this very point with someone else the applicant bringing up the fact that potential clients viewing the site will not be able to find them with incorrect info person says when you are running a business there are other priorities- read this carefully anyone and everyone particularly business owners/operators THERE IS N0THING NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN MAKING SURE POTENTIAL CLIENTS CAN FIND YOU !!!! when applicant stated to friend that's when you delegate it to someone and if they can't do it fire them and get someone else friend had nothing to say to that applicant wished they had large mallet to whack them over the head with hoping to would leave an 18 inch goose egg sticking up on top of their head like in the old cartoons



For our telephone gentleman who can't seem to return their e-mail it was suggested that they e-mail again making them look desperate (and not solving their time sensitive issue if they are to arrange their transportation in time to go to the original meeting) and something about it being implied that they the applicant do the foot work



To which the applicant related the above information about the time sensitivity and the fact that they did the "foot work" by asking the g-dam question to say nothing of the original follow up call OR THE FACT THAT THEY WOULD NEED BOTH THE EXACT ADDRESS AND DURATION OF PROCESS TO ARRANGE THE TRANSPORTATION.



But the applicants attitude and approach is all wrong and no one owes them anything and footwork doesn't mean just asking the question but it is their responsibility to find the info they need



Hints the follow up call and the reply to the subsequent e-mail to say noting of the phone lackey is not likely to have the correct info on the duration of the process and it is always a good idea to **** off a receptionist by calling 5 times a day NOT and the applicant is owed a response not because they are special or important or too lazy to call but by the tenets of BASIC BUSINESS ETIQUETTE the same unwritten rules that say you the applicant follow up don't wait for them to find you the same rules that say 3 to 5 days after an interview (unless instructed to wait longer or different time frame was discussed applicant should inquire about the status of interview



But there is always an excuse for the business to act shoddy but never the applicant not in the eyes of the public but especially in the eyes of friends BULLSHIT



Those unwritten rules ARE NOT A ONE WAY STREET if someone follows up you OWE them a response as good business practice if you say you will notify potential employee in X time after an interview DO IT and if you don't your next correspondence better start with an apology. When you are the contact person you MAKE YOURSELF AVAILABLE if only between X and X to people can reach you to follow up PERIOD. IS it really going to take an act of federal law to say you have X days to respond to follow up attempts to say that if you ignore time sensitive materials in that context its an automatic interview and should be automatic hire?? Is that what it takes. Do we have to enact a law that says you have a maximum of 1 month to send them a rejection letter and you MUST show proof of a call or a letter sent or you will be subject to a fine big enough to levy your business is THAT what it takes???



And WHY is it important to follow the tenets of BASIC BUSINESS ETIQUETTE because if you are available to take follow up calls you may find an applicant that may not look as good on paper but ends up being a perfect fit for your office, project management, journalism post or whatever the position as opposed to someone that has lots of experience and thus thinks they know everything that goes on in the position and is either a terror to work with or makes a mistake that costs you money. Secondly, for workers that can be a little more selective in their job search your business will get passed over for one that knows how to respond to follow up, one that knows how to make contact people available and one that knows how to respond to being given requested correspondence. Lastly, but perhaps most importantly, in this day and age particularly, it behooves companies to follow these unwritten rules so that applicants don't tell all of their friends not to apply with your company, tell them what stupid ditsy ill knowlaged people work their because it reflects poorly on the company when people give out incorrect dazed answers- then you are short applicants and workers. Plus in this technology age burned applicants can post a blog about their experience using only a user name and password (not their real name) bashing your company or can utilize the many review sites for companies and post scathing reviews on your practices and if potential clients read such things you will not have a business



"But businesses will do whats in their interests regardless of what we think"



But its in their interest to **** on their clients- SURE!



In regards to the university ads job placement worker and former student of said college stated that they were trying to save paper or as to the ridiculous amount of time to send the rejection letter maybe they had establishment specific event to do or were that backed up



HEAR ME AND HERE ME WELL THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A BUSINESS NOT TO ACT LIKE A BUSINESS



I don't give a **** how busy you are hire the number of people you need instead of expecting 1 person to do 5 people's job



Give contact responsibilities to the right person i.e. if you are looking for an assistant and have one already let them screen the freaking applicants rather than the lawyer with 60 hours worth of work on his plate- hello anyone HOME????



but the most bizarre thing ever heard was a friend who commented to applicant you don't want to be judged but look how you judge others



Applicant thought person vs professional judgment and HELL YEAH I WOULD EXPECT TO BE JUDGED IF I WERE A BUSINESS AND ACTED THAT WAY



EVERYBODY SHOVE THE BULLSHIT EXCUSES FOR F*CKWITT MORONIC BUSINESSES



I don't care if it is the status quo



I don't care if it's how its done or just the way it is



It is still WRONG, should be ILLEGAL and is still very much BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!!!!



And too many of you, and everyone else in America, are looking at the unemployed as lazy slackers unwilling to work while not just giant corporations but just businesses in general treat people who want to work like **** while simultaneously taking out want ads in essence begging for workers



We bash the millennial generation for not wanting to work particular jobs while we've turned getting a job at McDonald's into a feet and anything after that dam near impossible- but we blame slacker lazy kids with a sense of entitlement



While the government takes your tax dollars to pay out welfare benefits and food stamps to people, you and too many others, call undeserving but what the **** else are they supposed to do to put a roof over their heads clothes on their back food on their plate to say nothing of their kids- when they go looking for work and THAT is what they find ????????????????? To say nothing that if the government paid a little more attention to this **** they might pay less in welfare or disability benefits as they might be fully or partially EMPLOYED



We accuse this country of greed when too many simply want to work, have a place to live, have a vehicle either to get or keep a job, because as we found out when gas jumped to $4.00+ a gallon our public transit systems nation wide are NOT equipped for either the number of passengers or the bus routes do not go to all the places they are needed. Cars really are no longer a luxury neither is internet access particularly if you are looking for employment



Yet if you look at the existing comments on this story you see people saying things like get away from it and ignore it AS IF YOU CAN WHEN YOU NEED TO WORK



People implying that the applicant has done something wrong in their interaction with employers and that they go looking for the BULLSHIT they find- never mind no one had to LOOK for anything this is just what they found when they had the audacity to answer want ads- who wanted things in life and had the audacity to want to WORK for it.



But because this is the way things are its ok NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!



And everyone wonders why Americans are homicidal suicidal and everything in between



And the bull **** goes on



What is it with businesses looking for receptionist secretaries and the like that want you to apply in person who want 50-200 in this economy more like 300 people tromping in and out of your place of business?



One such place tells applicants to e-mail cover letter NOT resume to such and such then on the reply they tell them they are accepting resumes between X and X times and gave directions when applicant inquired as to how long the process would take (wondering if there was an orientation or on the spot interview) was subsequently told dropping off resume would take only a couple of minutes but they wanted applicants to tour the office prior to interview



So these people not only expect people to waste multiple $ in bus fair, cab fair or gas to do so but they make it harder on themselves by not just having people sent resume and cover letter to the e-mail address choosing the applicants they wanted to interview and bringing them in as a group or in so many groups to tour the office and be interviewed



instead you make things harder on yourself and make people think twice about finishing the application process worried about the companies organizational skills



Or these places that detail job and say call here- only for them to say and and i quote- yeah we're still accepting applications for that position did you have any specific questions. Gee i don't know how to apply to which i was given a fax number an e-mail and told that if i didn't have a resume i could come by and fill out an application



So why wasn't that in the ad and why do you want 50-200 people calling your business 3-400 considering the economy and the fact that it was a simple phone call



One place had a website but wanted you to mail resume and cover letter to an address and left off the zip code seemingly unaware that people will just bypass that ad for a complete one



Or actually responding to follow up with something other than thanks for the follow up or one local magazine that when i asked to discuss my interest in the position they were like i don't have time for that just send in your application information when i asked if there was a better time they said their wasn't send in application information and couldn't wait to get me off the phone



Does it really take federal law for people to figure out the things you must include in a job ad?





WHY is it you have to do EVERYTHING are we really going to get to the point of do it yourself sergery



there are reasons why we are discouraged from representing ourselves in court reasons why only lawyers can file all the paper work in particular cases



there are reasons why we have accoutants and tax prepaers because even in the age of google the average person CANOT know or find out everything some aspects of the tax law FYI are only diveuged to those in the business



here's another one for you talk show host does program on IRS **** ups one case it says clearly on the forms if you owe less than a dollar do not send it in and the IRS came after them



another older man with a similar mistake shot himself after years of trying to unravle the mess



in all your berating my stupidity my lazyness and me wanting somone to GVE me something (you mean other than an opportunity



you missed serval key points EMPLYERS who refuse to give employees the tools and knowledege to do their job



paces where people fill out what they are supposed to follow the rules and still don't get what they are supposed to



you ask me where my respect is it died trying to GET a job it DIED trying to live up to people who think like you's expectation the assumtion that even if you go looking for the information even if you talk to the people who have it that you'll actually get them NOT or that because you are an ordinary person not a career center job agency college career services they will even give you the time of day when it comes to job information wich they WON"T



you ask me where my self respect is it DIED in the fight for survival

Toby2day-



If our predecessors had made the same point about "parents who have no clue as to how to measure the quality of education" in generations past, we would never have made it to the point we did in 1965. Just because a person is not terribly well educated, she can still use her brain. Recent history is loaded -- loaded -- with examples of boat people with no formal education figuring it out and with their children excelling at school and in their chosen fields. Regular people are perfectly capable of making those types of decisions if they choose to.



When they can't be bothered with the welfare of their own children, which seems rather common these days, they are perfectly happy to allow the state to make those decisions for them. And they get the sort of results that a person gets when he doesn't care to take the time and make the effort.



As for test-driven methods, I believe that is more the consequence of a belief that more data is better data thinking. It is a great idea when used correctly, but once you get to the point where the preparation is for the test, not for life, you have passed the zone of usefulness. (Of course, you could argue that all preparation for all tests fits this description, as W E Demings did, in fact, do.)



I think this vogue notion of "teaching students to think analytically" is a load of crap. If you look back to earlier generations, when people supposedly did "think", they were not taught how to in school. The emphasis was actually on memorization and mechanical methods of solving problems. Yet, somehow, some way, people learned to think. There are two reason for this. One is that they tried. The other is that a person can not think analytically unless he has something to think about, and much of the time the best way to get the information in the head is rote and practice.

tulick-



I am going to give you my answer in language that is reduced from the hard-core variety that my father used with me, that previous generations used in my family as well. This is one time when cussing actually reinforces the points very, but the full treatment -- well, I just can't do it.



Apparently, I am the first generation in a number of generations who didn't get it, at least not until I was older. So, what I am about to say applied to me back in the day.



"Wake up, GDI! You keep telling me how someone here and someone there didn't do something to HELP you. Get your head out of your A**, and start thinking for yourself. You will only get what you can extract from any situation.



"If you sit there and wait for other people to GIVE you what you need, you will be sitting forever. Are you paralyzed? Are you stupid? Are you lazy? What don't you understand? Do something yourself!



"The fact that you got in the door allows you to ask questions and listen to others. Is everyone else there ignorant? You get back in there and figure it out!



"Do you hear yourself? You tried to get the government to help you? Are you insane? Do you have any dignity? Any self-respect? Everything in your last post is about getting handouts from the government. The government is not there to help you. It's there to fleck you! No government worker gives a shirt about you.



"If you think that someone else, especially some government program, is going to do it for you, you are sorely mistaken.



"Use you brain. Get out there and do something for yourself."



By the way, don't go thinking my family is "rich" and I don't understand. That talk above is part of the reason my family got out of poverty in the first place and how every time we slip back in we get back out.



Again, if you think that someone else, especially some government program, is going to do it for you, you are sorely mistaken. It really does not matter whose fault it is, you are the only one who is going to make it work for you.



This is the last comment I will leave for you. You seem to me to more interested in making excuses and spending time and energy getting someone else to pull for you than you are in really getting out. I hope you change your mind. Good luck.

True. (and forgive my spelling errors. Between my lack of keyboard skills, and dyslexic vision it gets a bit weird at times)

I know that the ideas are there. But...

with the push for 'accountability" from parents who have no clue as to how to measure the quality of education, and the push for accountability at the state and fed level, again by people who wish to measure success the same as a new product line. What we end up with is the never ending standardized tests. Which are no longer any good for even turning out trivia players. They forget as soon as the test is taken.



There has to be ways to do it. Our future dpends upon an educated work force. And educated leaders.

Toby2day, you are very right. Unfortunately, other considerations are politically more important than developing the kids' minds.



My parents yanked me out of public school, at serious cost, to avoid the end of tracking, etc. As the principal said at the time, there was no way she could guarantee the quality of instruction once the changes took place.



Having taught, I can say with some certainty that she could have guaranteed that the new way would not work at all. I knew a lot of bright kids who will continue to have loads of trouble in life because the basics -- like reading -- just are not there.



Now they have neither good basic skill nor strong self-esteem.

i understand your point about "how" would these standards be inforced.



As for the retention issue.



They started in the right direction for a time, then as with everything in education took a diffeerent path.

If johnny can not read at x level by the time alotted...first determine why?

2. If it's remediatin that is needed either summer school or perhaps

"bridge" programs. where in remediatin is given in the single lacking subject area.

if he's behind in more than one

retain.

If he is retained a second time repeat the process. Is there a learning problem? If so deal with that. Inclusion class, least restrictive as possible. But also consider what was being done in the 70's.

(now called tracking and deemed discriminatory) Group students.

Faster students grouped together moving at their pace; slower ones moving at theirs with para-professionals if needed. This is supportive and condusive to a learning environment.

Placing all of them in one group hoping the faster ones will pull the slower ones does not work.

And it must be done at the primary level.

Also go back (yes I said turn back the clock)

Primary is to grade 6 not grade 4.



Social advancement does not work and is more damaging to 'self esteem' than retaining them and remediating.

ok how are you supposed to learn the rules learn how to do your job if your boss/ supervisor is either never there or never has time to answer your questions



so you are left to ask your coworkers who give you conficting and WRONG information



I'll gve you another example person applys for community program in dec. of year X they move in march of the next year fill out the requireed change of adress form and sent it to program within days of moving



it takes till the millde of may for them to send it back as inccorretly filled out (inpart because the intake person was never able to come to the phone) persin dies get them on phone and sends back change of adress from along with the other info asked for on said form



in sept. person recives letter about need to attend info meeting on the progam they were waitlisted for but they did not recive the letter till after 5pm on the day of the meeting and the mailing adress was their old adress and there was a note to please update adress with the progeam person calls newly hired intake worker and says they attended feb. meeting (meetings were held monthly)



intake says can't find records will look



2 days later person recives letter they have been pulled from list for not attending when they call intake worker says still can't find records will ask supervisor but they were not pulled for list until someone found out what was going on



in last week for spet. intake worker calls says found records person confirms current adress is told it should be about 2 weeks



person patiently waits Jan. 19th of the new year they get someone to drive them down to the office w/ their id in hand to find out where they are on waiting list (the only way you could find out was in person w/ ID) resptionist cannot find them on list goes to computer and tells person they were sent letters in oct. and nov. and were pulled from list for no comment



when persons jaw drops and they clearly have no clue what woman is talking about intake is called up sees person says can you come to a meeting thurs. because after so many months you must attend another



person says sure and says is that held here pointing to the floor of building they were standing in intake says yes when person mentions that they have recoved no futher letters apart from the ones in sept. intake goes you haven't(tone indicated you are correct) and when the person relayed what receptionist told them they recived a blank look and were told to ome to the meeting thus.



Person then calls worker from other comunity agency to see if they can unravel what smells like person getting dicked around and not only does worker find out the meeting is in a different place but that the intake worker played it off as a missunderstanding that the person thought it was about miising records when it was really about needing to attend another info meeting forget thats what intake TOLD the person



my POINT in telling you the longest story in the world is what happened when the NEWLY HIRED intake worker went to her supervisor????????????



i imangine the conversation went something like this person says they atteneded feb. meeting can't find records where are they ?



the supervior knowing the policies should have been able to count the number of months between feb and sept. and know that it was beyond the time they needed to attend another and TELL intake worker they needed to attend to send them a letter of time and date of next one tell them they MUST attend and DO NOT pull them until they have a chance to attend the upcoming meeting



in fact had this place had its act together they would have been sent a notice that you have been on the list X months and as a result you need to attend another ifo meeting and the next one is as it was the letter the person was sent said they had no record of them attending one at all



but the supervisor said nothing like that and even when intake worker (this was 1 person not an intire staff or department) learned what the deal was in the course of her job never contacted person to properly inform them



and the POINT about the job placement worker ( who was no not my freind but never mind) was the things she lacked i.e. being put on the e-mail curcit and a code for the phone are things ONLY the employer can give things that are the resposibility of HR IT or security and having been hired off the street w/ no experience she's not going to KNOW to ask for those things and not only that but she was only put on the e-mail curcit when someone noticed she wasn't not because of backlog IT was working its was through but because no one bothered to put her on it

tulick -



Your friend's situation reminds me of a company that I once worked in -- not very tightly run; therefore, sloppy and wasteful. In those environments, you are on your own. In those companies, you are tossed into the water with the sharks and barracuda, and it is up to you to make it work. It is an expensive way to weed people out, but that is what they do. I gotta ask, though, just what was she told were the functions of her job? And how aggressive was she about figuring it out?



I have been there, I know because when I worked for a company like that early in my life. I still won't do business with them. But really, a lot of the blame for my lack of success there was on me. The environment there was what it was, and I did not figure out the rules until I was long gone. So, I did not thrive there. If I had been willing to do what was needed -- nothing illegal -- I might still be there now.



As far as making companies take people in order to train those people on certain software, etc. in order to gain experience: If that happened, companies will simply add a layer of published requirements to the list, making the forced experiences null.