A Sad Situation

oh yes, please do elaborate. Honestly have no idea what point widow maker is trying to make in regards to this story.

harrythewidowmaker enlighten us.

Mark Twain was a genius,

A lie travels halfway around the world while truth is still putting on it's boots.



I love how the uninformed act like they know everything. Isn't that right, Dan Rather!

Declare victory and leave with our tail between our legs would be a good start. Then cut the military budget in half (at the very least). Then bring back the draft.



3 steps back to sanity.

I wish we could turn it all around some how.

Puck61 thanks. I like to think I have come to terms with issues brought on by going to Iraq. I lost a friend there thinking his death was worth the price. It is the DOD that set the "Rules of Engagement" we had to follow. As such there lies the No-Win situation. The press was intent on bashing everything the American Soldier did and being second guessed after the outcome. I too see America as Rome, the curtain is closing on the Empire.

Yes, Peza and like Rome we are over extending ourselves.

You are absolutely spot on , Puck.

The whole misguided escapade is an aberration and a senseless waste of life.

Thank you for your service. I hope your'e healing well.

For what ever its worth, I went to Iraq in 06 and returned home in 07 from my injuries. I have wondered everyday what we were doing there.

At this point I don't see how anyone could be pro-war.It's pretty obvious that the changes we've made are temporary. It will seem as if we were never there.

Are there no Pro-war patriots here? Still waiting to hear from them...

A draft would insure that we don't enter wars of choice, which these wars obviously were.



As for having the strongest military, we could cut the defense budget in half and still have a military that is stronger than the next dozen countries COMBINED. That gives you some perspective on how rampant the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us of has taken over.



As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I want a supporter of our presence there to tell me what victory looks like, and when we'll know we can leave. Don't feel bad if you can't define it, for no one in Washington has been able to sufficiently define it and we've been there for 8 years.

I think we still have to maintain the strongest military in the world. I just wish we could choose our battles more wisely. By that I mean, if we have to put soldiers in harms way, the cause should be just, and victory should be realistically achievable.

when we finally pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, not only are things going to return to the way they were but there is going to be a blood bath for everyone who had anything to do with us, and for those who benefited from our presence.

What happened to make me so against the military? Oh, I don't know... something about innocent people dying for economic reasons turns my stomach, call me crazy. I guess the WASTE of innocent lives, innocent children and women (aka collateral damage, completely acceptable in military circles) gets under my skin.



I love that you brought up a high tax rate as an argument against free education. You wouldn't happen to be a republican or libertarian, would you? Of course the education isn't "free". It's an investment, a much wiser one than say the ridiculous tax break that Obama and his republican friends just forced onto America. Keep spending the same, drastically cut taxes (especially on the rich), watch the deficit grow from 1 trillion in 1980 to 14 trillion now, and then look around and say "hey, we're broke. We've gotta cut Social security and Medicare". I wish I were lying, but that's what's actually happening.



I'm anti war, so I support bringing back the draft. If our government were forcing kids to sign up and die, then these "wars" (they're really illegal occupations) would have already ended.



Can't you people see how politicians manipulate your patriotism into support for them to get rich from defense contractors? Both parties are to blame, but let's be honest, democrats aren't nearly as shameful about draping themselves in the flag and "National Security" as the Republicans.



Why won't you people wake up? They are tricking you, and tricking your loved ones. Tricking them into signing up, and tricking you into supporting that bad choice.

A lot of countries also have a mandatory service too. Some are a choice between military or some other type of "volunteering." Those countries which have "free" college also have a rather high tax rate and some are even beginning to charge some for the education.



Yes there are some who signed up for the benefits. Yet, there is still a lot they have to pass before they can even enlist. There are many out there who would have enlisted whether or not 9/11 happened. In the case of my son, economic reasons was no where on the radar as far as priorities for joining. He was also interested in all things military before 9/11 happened as are many who serve.



Another thing, the military can not decide to invade a country, that is the decision of the leadership of the country. The decision to invade had bipartisan support. You can oppose ware all you want, but don't take it out on the individual members of the military. Not sure what happened in your life Vendetta that has made you so jaded as far as the military.

A very small percentage of soldiers "like" war. Most of our volunteer army signed up after 911 because they wanted to DO something, and felt like signing up was the brave and honorable thing to do. Perhaps. But it was also a dense decision, once you realize how the military industrial complex works.



Those that didn't sign up for patriotic reasons probably signed up for economic reasons. We bribe people. We offer them job training, a college education, a signing bonus.... All bribes. You see, in other countries, college education is free. So the generous offer of paying for college isn't really that generous at all.



We're not there to fight terrorists. We're not there to spread freedom and democracy. We're not there to build schools. Our soldiers fight and kill and die for the profit of a few transnational corporations. That's it. That's all. That's the less than noble cause that so many have died for. You might not like to hear that. You might think it's offensive, but that's too bad. It's obvious to anyone that cares to look, anyone that's not blinded by patriotic duty.



And to donjames, to hell with you, too. I will continue to oppose war, especially stupid wars of choice, such as the one that you decided to volunteer for. My stance has the side effect of bringing you out of harms way. Don't expect me to honor you for your poor decision of enlisting, for either misguided patriotic reasons or your own economic reasons. You are not protecting my freedoms. Last time I checked, if you and your friends had not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein wasn't going to conquer the US with his imaginary WMDs and then take away my freedoms. Sorry, I'm tired of the "fighting for our freedoms" talking point.

Last I knew, we have an all volunteer military and less than one percent of those eligible enlist. Doesn't look like to me that we are raising out kids to snap at it and enlist. Those who enlist do so for many different reasons. They are not blood thirsty. If you ask anyone who serves if they like war, they will tell you no. They probably like war less than those who do not enlist. Yet, they are willing to train for the event of war and put their lives on the line.



If you are able to spend time with Soldiers, even more than one, you will find out that things are far different than what we are told.



All that being sad, I do think that whenever we leave, things will go back to the ways they were before. That is what is sad to me.

We raise our children to snap to attention at the behest of the government in what they declare as a national emergency, we put our brains in storage and let the powers that be tell us our duty and we encourage our children, our babies, our blood to die, for what...shiny medals and a pretty uniform.

You say that they (the govt. and pentagon) have info we do not so we should acquiesce, do you not remember Viet Nam, Cambodia and Laos?

" We fight for freedom this we know, for those who bade us fight have told us so"

No problem Quintesse, my shoulders are broad enough for the burden. I was totally against the first Iraq invasion. I marched and played protest songs in front of pretty big crowds in Tucson Az. I slowly drifted to the right and felt like we were off to fight terrorists and turn the Huns into a democratic society. Hoooaaah. -but then I started seeing the results of using depleted uranium ordinance, and such, and I became aware that we were fighting against a mindset more than a group of people. When it became clear to me that everything was going to be just the same after we left Iraq and Afghanistan. I began to be adamantly against the war again. If it's obvious that nothing is going to change over there so what's the point? Let's let them go back to killing each other. If they want freedom let them take it like we did.

Sorry Puck and Julie. Those guys really barged in here with a decent amount of shock and awe.

I started it, I guess. Still, if you post a story about war--especially the current conflicts, you are setting yourself up for an emotional exchange. A lot of people who never supported either war (and even a lot of those who did) are very tired of this, to put it plainly. And to suggest that there were WMD but we somehow just missed them, is inflamatory--and ridiculous.



Sadaam Hussein was evil. There are a lot of people who are evil, but for some reason (me, whistling), Bush was fixated on him--really wanted an excuse to go in. He got it. To go back and justify it now is just, --well you can try, but a lot of the arguments just fall on deaf ears (like mine) at this point.

And Guilty--I pretty much make up the numbers as I go along--but , hey--I got pretty damn close this time! And I don't really spend a lot of time over on the DOD website, but maybe I should--that sounds like a blast! And sorry about the mistake about the non-combat death. My bad. I'm sure his family doesn't see the distinction either though, seeing as he died while serving his country. But thanks for the clarification.

Vendetta,



As a soldier in Afghanistan right now I say to hell with you. It bothers me to be called a hero because I am not out kicking in doors and going on missions. I will be damned if some political jackass is gonna bash a soldier. We are doing our job. We may not always agree with being here but we understand there is a bigger picture. I have had numerous people both during my time in AF and during my deployment to Iraq that have come up and told me thank you. They are glad we came to help. That makes all your arguments mean nothing. Quit trying to justify your stance and realize that we are the 1% of people in our country that actually is willing to stand up and fight.

Who gives a rats *** whether the deaths are from combat or not? A dead soldier is just as dead if it comes from a roadside bomb. It's just as much a waste, considering that there's no point to us staying there. Our very presence incites as much violence as we prevent, so why stay there?



Who cares if Hussein was killing people? By that logic, why didn't we intervene in the genocide in Africa?



What happened to the Republican party that stood for isolationism? Oh, the military industrial complex happened, that's right. It's infected both parties, that's why we are there.



I'm sure Saddam hid all of his weapons once we showed up, just so he could make George Bush look foolish. Wouldn't it make sense that if he had them, he would have used them?



I can't stand all of these apologetic, patriotic arguments for why we're there. Just admit it, the wars are complete waste of lives and treasure. The soldiers that died there aren't heroes, their lives are much more tragic than that.

Quintesse - I am not sure where you get your numbers as far as troops killed. Since Jan. 1, which is 19 days, there have been 5 killed in Afghanistan and 2 in Iraq. Of those 2 in Iraq, one was non-combat related. That makes a total of 7 since the first of the year and 6 of those were combat related. This is what is confirmed and announced by the DoD. My son just returned from a 12 month deployment in Iraq, I am more fearful of what might happen when he is out driving then i was when he was in Iraq. More of our young people are killed on our roads than there are in Iraq.



WMD, Hussein was using them on Iraqi's. What he did with them is anyone's guess. As long as there are the different Islamic sects wanting control of Iraq, there are going to be problems there. Even after we are long gone.



Now, should we still be there. From my viewpoint, probably not. Yet, I don't have all the intell that Obama and others have. The fact that all of our troops are not out of Iraq in 18 months as he promised tells me that there is more there than we know.



One more thing, none of us glory in the deaths of anyone, even our troops who are or who have served in these areas.

Words are nothing next to deeds. Situations like this call for powerful words of hate. Thousands of our troops have died. Untold dozens (or perhaps hundreds) of thousands of innocent civilian casualties in those two countries. Not just "terrorists". Women. Children. No words that can be uttered can have a corresponding effect to the crimes committed by the Republicans (and Democrats) that authorized this pre-emptive war of choice, based on flimsy "evidence" and done out of fear that was generated by republicans. It's impossible to fully describe the horror of this country's actions.



They all have blood on their hands. Obama as well, for continuing this hopeless and utterly pointless endeavor in Afghanistan.



**** them all.

Wow that's some heavy stuff ya'll are throwing at Jules, and myself actually, because I stand further to the right than I do to the left. Wouldn't you say the poison gas that Saddam used on the Kurds was a weapon of mass destruction?

"and only insects like you glory in the blood shed and feed on the corpses of our dead." that's pretty hateful.

ya Jules, they were right next to big foot just next to the flying saucer and Noah's ark.

The right needs to admit they have the blood of our troops on their hands and our troops have the blood of innocent Iraqis on theirs.

Bush like all money grubbing fascists knew that a good war would usher in a robust economy, but boy George forgot an essential point, fool me one shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Many of us remembered Viet Nam, here and in other countries, soon his lies were exposed and only insects like you glory in the blood shed and feed on the corpses of our dead.

lol at Jules. George Bush called, he wants your brother in law's laptop so that he can show everyone the WMD's and prove us all wrong. What a joke. I most certainly will tell you that they weren't there. Some of us have been against the war from the beginning. Pull up a chair and get comfy, it's going to be forever before we leave, thanks to all the people like you.

Um...Jules--they weren't there.

Doctored images perhaps? But even Cheney agrees they weren't there.

No one believes me--I mean, I am literally out there all by myself with this one--but I am convinced that the reason we went to Iraq to get Sadamm Hussien is because it was revenge for his attempted assasination of Bush Sr.

There, I said it.

There were no WMD. They looked--really hard, for a really long time. It's a...fact.

But there was oil, and the satisfaction of "getting" Sadaam and killing him in an inhumane and humiliating way. So , I guess as far as Bush Jr is concerned it was not entirely a lost cause, and let's not forget the oil. Why do you think they set the fields on fire--they knew that's why we were really there.

In any case, troops are still dying there--by my inexact count at least 7-10 just this week--suicide bombers in Iraqi Police uniforms, IED's--pretty non-sophisticated stuff.

I don't know why we are in Afghanistan. Al Queda? Okay--but they are so clever at hiding and they have really perfected the art of cave dwelling--like running internet cables underground and smuggling in Lazy-Boys in covered mule wagons. I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon, especially when they can just skip across the border into Pakistan and get anything they need. Don't even get me started on Karzai. I already have a headache from re-hashing all this ****.

I wanted them all home before they ever left, so this has been a pretty exhausting slog for me.

But Mr Puck, I definitely feel your pain.

Signed, an old friend.

Ok. Then another mission was accomplished, but that was so many years ago. My point is that those people are going to go right back to the way they were. It's already happening in Iraq and Afghanistan compliments of Iran and others.