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Before You Cheat

 

BEFORE YOU CHEAT....let me tell you my story of my husband going on a similar group or even this group looking for a woman willing to have sex with him. He found such a woman who was willing to cheat on her husband . I can't tell you the excruciating pain and mind numbing sense of betrayal this has caused me his wife who had no idea this was occurring.  Why you may ask? My husband was always  a "righteous man" who I thought his faith in God, he would always tell me the truth. After all he was the one that told me adultery was wrong from a biblical sense.  When asked if he was doing all this.. frontal nude pictures of himself on 3 different adult websites, asking for one on one discreet sex, alternate sex methods, emailing women who posted their nude pictures  and even on groups such as this.. he denied it and accused me of using his faith in God for not requesting sex on line. He said I deserved this for not doing my part as a wife by not providing sex. What is your excuse for cheating? We all know there is NO valid reason to cheat on your spouse period. If you feel you will get away with this..you may for awhile but it will eventually come out now or even years later. BUT the pain it will cause your spouse will still cut deep as if it happened yesterday.
 Are you willing a Divorce, loss of respect from your family for a person you met on line, your own set of ethics of what is right or wrong? For someone you really don't know at all? Someone like you who is lying to their spouse but yet you feel is telling you the truth? My husband met his "Internet ****" (her words not mine) in a hotel-first meeting in person, had unprotected sex with her,oral sex and she let him take nude pictures of her. She  had her mother lie to her husband that she was with her.  Would you be willing to take a chance on such a woman to be faithful to you and say is  your soul mate? If you are on the fence on cheating, please think...Let your spouse go if you are truly unhappy-give them the respect they deserve or a least a chance to decide for themselves if they still want to be married to you..Interesting that both my husband and his mistress will not talk to each other now and are remorseful and ashamed. Is it because it's now out in the light and not in the dark of night?  Or is because her husband has asked for a Divorce, her fear of losing her house, loss of her "love of her life and best friend-her husband", loss of respect of her children? Did you know 90% of marriages that start out like this are doomed to fail?
Let me leave you with this.. Leviticus 20:10 The man who commmits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbors wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death...If you want to read more-go to the bible...My thoughts as a wife of a adulterer...
internetsluts internetsluts 46-50 102 Responses Oct 9, 2008

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Again, not an excuse to cheat, but damn it, how would you like to be starving for affection and intimacy, only to get shot down again and again. I don't mean to be nasty, but you really need to read YOUR bible more thoroughly, because you are not perfect Miss Thing.

My point was, that she is talking about religion and bible and all of that, so I told her that she ought to read hers a bit more thoroughly and understand that she is wrong to refuse her husband sex. That is all.

she does insinuate that HE felt he wasn\'t getting it from her... but really that is wide open for interpretation. If she was withholding for an invalid reason, i.e. didn\'t like it, didn\'t think sex is right, didn\'t think it was right, whatever, then yea, she was in the wrong. in my mind this still doesn\'t justify cheating... he as other options like ending the relationship. Then again, maybe HE said she was withholding, and she just honestly reports what he said because she has nothing to hide, but in reality what he really meant is that she wouldn\'t do the things he wanted... I\'ve seen guys here on EP talk about cheating and or dumping wives because they won\'t do ********** or group or wife swapping or do anal or perform for friends, etc. there are many people these days that actually expect these things without question as if they are given rights and there is no choice, and are mad when they don\'t get them.
I would say your point is valid though, that a wife should not withhold sex, or use sex as a tool... anymore then a husband should withhold money or affection as a manipulation tool... and visa-verse.
and you are right... to go without sexual attention for extended periods of time for no reason can be extremely difficult for both men and women... and wasn\'t part of the biological or spiritual plan. to withhold just creates a ton of problems and really puts a crack in the relationship.

Why are you refusing your husband sex? Not that it is a good excuse to him, but if you want to get biblical, you are as wrong as he is by not having sex with him.

It is terrible to be rejected over and over again.

Internetsluts, I can see your anger, however I did read you're posting a few times to ensure that I understood it; moreover this is my first day on this site I just joined today June 24, 2013.

Thus, the reason that I joined was because my partner decided for us that she did not have to have sex or shall I say, only what she wanted to do or nothing at all.

Hence, we had not had sex in two years, and I’m tired of it and wanted to know …was it time for me, or okay for me to seek sex outside of the relationship? I don’t want to be a dog or cheating *******. I just don’t want to be controlled by sex or have sex used as a tool to control me. Begging is not a part of my personality.

Hence, what I noticed in your writing you never said that he was wrong when he told you “he’s not getting it from you”. Always, why do you feel the need to cite the bible…

Why not bring up the part of Scripture where St. Paul admonishes to not withhold sex from your marital partner? I agree with you, it does not sound as if the wife in the story above was at all blameless. Marriage is a relationship, not a contract. Both parties need to put forth effort for it to work - neither person in the relationship is entitled to anything.

The betrayal of the person we chose to share our most intimate thoughts, our most physical intimacies with, is the ultimate emotional pain we can ever experience. I never felt so much overwhelming pain in my life. I recently lost the grandparents who raised me, followed by my father, and the pain of those deaths was eclipsed by the lie my wife hid from me for 25 years of our 28 year marriage. After my initial despair and angered mistreatment of her, I let the reality of what happened to my "little girl" sink in. I am sad that the beautiful young girl I dated since she was 15 and I was 17 didn't understand that our "family friend" actually raped her. I was working afternoons and a 50 year old "family friend" who was married with kids of his own, invited my 22 year old wife and 2 children on a local run in his semi. When they returned to the place my wife left the car, the children had fallen asleep in the rear sleeper cab. When she knelt down to wake them, she felt him grab her around the waist and he jerked her pants and underwear down and forced himself on her. She said she was so scared, she said her mind raced... what did she do to cause this? Why was this person who was friends with her family, her mother and father, why was he doing this? She never told me, she was afraid I would leave her, afraid that she would ruin our marriage and his. Now I cry, but it's because I realize that she was just young girl who was taken advantage of by deviate who new he could get away with it because of his ties to the family. He is still alive and is around 73 now. I never thought I could take a another human beings life, but I was wrong. It was 08-03-2012 when my wife finally told me, she still thought she did something to cause it. She didn't, her only fault was being a beautiful young innocent woman who trusted a friend. My mind is constantly devising plans to kill that man, but in the end it would only hurt the best, honest, loving wife and mother I was lucky enough marry. So, I can only cry for the horrific thing that happened to the person I love more than I can ever find the words to describe its depths. Her decision to hold that in all these years is a true testament to her love for her own family... and saving that rotten deviates wife and children from all the pain and suffering they would have felt. God, thank you for this life you gave me with this beautiful, loving, caring wife and mother, I didn't deserve her.

We were friends with his whole family for 3 years before this happened. We camped with them, went out to eat with them. I was on steady afternoon for the first 6 years of our marriage and I never thought our friend would hurt her, hurt us, like he did. I am 50 years old now, and I would never do something to any woman like this. She worked for the company he drove for and thought she would get to see another part of what the company did. She thought our kids would enjoy it too. How many kids get to ride in a semi, I know I never did. But you are right, I did tell her I didn\'t like it and didn\'t think she should go. She said don\'t worry, he is as old as my father and he has never given me any reason to think he would do something like what you are thinking. Besides, I am taking our 2 children along. Well she was wrong, I guess that was why she never told me all these years. She had a lot on her plate at the time and being home with 2 kids every night was hard. Her father was dying of cancer and they had just discovered she had cancerous cells on her cervix and she was scheduled for surgery in a couple of weeks. I know she never told our \"friend\" intimate things like that or he would never have done that to her. In fact, what kind of deviate would do that to a young woman who had her kids with her anyway. I am sick just thinking of it, and I have mistreated her because of the pain I feel from it, knowing I still did things with him. He even talked about getting another truck and hiring me to work for him. I didn\'t want this pain in my life, I have held a gun to my head twice because she hid this from me. She was the person I trusted more than anyone in my life and she let me down. It was a mess in so many ways how do you fix it? Should I leave the person I grew up with and planned to have a lifelong relationship with? Do I put a bullet in my head and end the unimaginable pain I never imagined I would feel? I do get mad because we had 2 more children and our last child is disabled and she would never understand why I died. I am in that place no one ever imagines they will be, yet here I am. I was betrayed by my friend and my wife. Not because she didn\'t want to be with me, because she did and feared what I would do if I knew he did that to her. I was young and I cannot say I may not have tried to kill him. Where would I be then? I don\'t know. I can only do what I can everyday and I am still here right now. If you know anyone with a time machine, I am sure I could fix this.

Beat the **** out of the son of a *****.....you hv that right

I would love to hurt him. My feelings change everyday, from anger with him, anger with her for letting him get away with it, anger that I should have known something happened because now I realize looking back, that she started pulling our family away from them. I think he may have felt guilty, or maybe he thought he would have another chance with her because he came around us more after that for the next few months to help me work on our house. Looking back now, I remember she would disappear when he showed up. One of my siblings was molested when we were young and they said the same things my wife did when she finally told me. She said she was scared, what did she do to cause it, did she say something wrong or suggestive? I know she didn\'t plan it because my parents or hers would have taken the kids for her to go somewhere... even if she lied to them to go have an affair. We were both naïve to this world because we had only been with each other in that way. I am still astounded at things I read here that go on in this world. She told me she didn\'t know how to handle it, how to just stop being friends with his wife, his kids. She used her dads illness to push us away, but it was actually really keeping our life in survival mode to just get through the days and months of his ravaging illness. He died a year later and we had not seen them for 6 months before he died. They came to the funeral and my wife said she was mortified to see them,,, him in line to see the family. I am selfish with my feelings when I am overwhelmed with anger, but I need to think of her and the things she had to handle all by herself. I guess she was right not to tell me, because I failed her with my reaction.

I had a wife like you. Didn't want me and didn't want anyone else to have me either. I don't know what you want out of a personal relationship. It might be best you both move on. Perhaps he can find someone he can have a loving martial relationship with and you can too. You can then put the hurt behind you.

Sorry...a life full of snooping is no life. Get rid of him and find someone u can trust! I did! We r both worth it. For giveness only works if someone wants to change. Trust ur gut!!!!!

I dated a guy for 8 months that I briefly knew in high school. I snooped images phone and found that he was a member of these web sites.some guys have sexual addictions and nobody can change themget rid of him and move on to someone you can trust a life with your new Ping is no life at all Trust is a virtue above everything else you deserve better

And how is anyone to trust you, who snoops on your partner? Will anyone you move on to be able to expect that you won't invade their privacy? Should they be allowed any privacy or do they become your property? Listen to your own advice..

In a biological sense sharing intimacy with another human being not matter what sex they are is no different to eating and drinking. As humans we are given a brain to help control decisions around what we eat, drink and whom we we share sexual intimacy with. But humans can't stay hungry forever...

you're bang on.

I am praying for peace and healing for you.

Sexual intimacy is a biological need just like hunger & thirst. Depriving your spouse for whatever reasons and on whatever pretext will naturally have consequences which you've narrated so well. The solution lies in not cursing him. Either fulfill his needs or simply let someone else do the job. Period.

If you were not having an intimate relationship with your husband, and not caring about his needs, you have to take some responsibility for what happened. I know your pain is great, but think how painful it is for a spouse to be rejected sexually from his/her partner.<br />
It's not just about the sex, it's also the lack of intimacy that goes with it. The rejection of this causes great suffering, probably on the scale of your suffering now, and even worse because it goes on year after year, until he/she either strays or leaves the marriage. Pure and simple, it's rejection, and if you rejected him, and neglected this part of your marriage vows, which are also in the Bible....wives submit to your husbands, etc; then you were also committing a "sin" by denying him intimacy in the marriage.<br />
What he did was way over the top, and of course, you are hurt beyond measure. I don't know if you two can sort this out or not, but my best to you, and I'm truly sorry for your pain.

I feel sorry for your pain it must be a very distresssing time for you. The consequences of Adultery are obviously devestating to a family. Would it not be equally selfish and foolish to place blame solely at the cheating spouses door. After all what choices do we have? What do you do when you love someone but they wont have sex with you? Take cold showers? Leave your partner? Also if you dont want to have sex with your partner why do you mind if someone else does?

Oh, so you not giving your husband intimate contact and pushing him into an affair is ok. At what point did you wake up and coffee? Was it when you told you, or did you go riffling through his phone and computer to find the evidence. I'm sure you are just furious with him as well and let me guess not putting out. Be assured that his mind is still wandering and contemplating doing it again. I'm sure he looks at every woman with a lustfull eye at the store, church and the office. A man can only be rejected for so long before he hits a breaking point.

You should have put out prune

I'm a Christian and i agree with you that adultery will only hurt everyone involved but I do not agree with your out of balance use of sc<x>ripture to imply we should stone those who commit adultery. Your husband needs to repent and Im sorry for your pain however at some point you need to repent of your unforgiving and vengeful attitude or it will snuff the light right out of you. <br />
We are certainly all sinners and we will be judged as harshly as we judge others. I understand the thoughts of using *********** and the temptation to commit adultery. I wish I could say I have always dealt with the intimacy issues in a righteous manner but I would be lying if I did. However thank God he is not just a God of judgment but also a God of mercy. In the old testament God had Moses institute capital punishment for a number of sins, adultery being one. There were a number of reasons for such strict laws at that time. God was setting apart the nation of Israel for a special purpose one of which was to reveal the character and nature of God ( YEHEW) to the world and also to physically bring forth the promised messiah Yeshua ( Jesus The Christ). When the messiah came the first time he came to save the world not to judge it. The judgement will happen during his second coming. In the mean time the call to repent and receive Gods forgiving grace through Jesus Christ the son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead is the message. This message of repentance and forgiveness through Christ was powerfully illustrated with the women caught in adultery. The self-righteous religious jews were ready to stone her according to the law of Moses but little did they know one greater than moses stood before them. Jesus forgave the women's sins and told her go and sin no more ( John 8:3-11). Thank God he is not only a God of judgment but also a God of mercy. I don't recommend adultery to anyone it will only cause more problems but if you have already gone down that road know Jesus wants to forgive and restore but you have to repent and put your faith in him.

It is true that relationships are a 2 way street. It's too bad that he couldn't be truthful with you about his desires. You sound really mad. I can see why. Maybe you are just not as wild as him. I would have personally forgave him and would go forward by trying to see if I could fulfill his passionate..maybe even kinky desires. To me intimacy is almost everything. With it comes love and trust. Anyways..that's just my take on it.

woooah just read the last part - put to death? :/ ****...does the bible really say that?

I fail to see how simplistic one-size-fits-all narratives regarding how affairs start are valuable.<br />
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However, the outcome, and ethical, not religious, considerations are important. Something for me to think about in a circumstance that is painful whatever decision is made.

Thanks for your comments . . . you are one of the few on this site who seem to see the larger picture and recognize we all own others in society a duty of care (e.g., the families of the people a cheating spouse is stepping out with), as well as our immediate families. Cut the malignant cancer out of your life and go find the happiness that you rightfully deserve. Godspeed.

Once a cheater always a cheater if they stray from one they'll stray from another. <br />
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When I first moved out west I had a small apt. There were 6 others around me. One small studio above where an old man lived was rented by a couple. The unusal deal was they were only there Monday through Friday from 2-5:30 in the afternoons? Never around on the weekends. I asked the old man about the strange arrangements and of course they were two people having an affair. She married to a man much older and treated her like a daughter. He just tired of his wife for some reason or another. OH YEAH SO NICE CHEAP CHAMPAIGN,,,,SEX, fun hanging around for a few hours during the week. (neither really knew what the other was like it was a just fun play)<br />
What happened was his family found out and all hell broke loose! His son came over to the apt and ramsacked it. I saw the aftermath he was angry. So was all the pain worth the fun time they had? OH WELL BEING DISHONEST NEVER PAYS OFF JUST LIKE YOU SAY!!!!!!!<br />
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B

What a sobering post...I do feel your pain, I can imagine the betrayal is awful :( <br />
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But I do have to say, as a Christian woman who is sadly in a sexless marriage, the temptation...actually, i'd almost say NEED for intimacy (yes, there is sex with that but its not just the sex I want, its the intimacy that comes with it) is growing more and more every day that i'm not touched or loved in a physical way. Today, I cannot imagine cheating. I don't know about the future. <br />
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I'm not saying your husband was justified in doing what he did. But I do know that if I ever let any other man fulfil me physically it will be out of complete and utter frustration, desperation and deep need because I have waited YEARS and cannot keep waiting forever. I have been patient, encouraging, loving, faithful, everything that is my duty as a loving wife. I don't think I can say that my husband has done his part in our marriage. <br />
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So...even though it pains me to say this, especially as I am someone who believes in God and Christ very strongly, that I do think there are situations where an affair is almost inevitable...

I'm sorry, what does "fat" have to do with any of this?

If only I had the balls to do that girl.<br />
I would feel so guilty cheating although my husband and I have sex so infrequently that I think about it often and find myself literally drooling over other men-even HIS OWN BROTHER.<br />
I ma becoming desperate and don't know what to do. have talked to him before and he is aware of the situation but he just has a very low libido. I am lucky if we have sex every 4 months and that's probably because I initiated it. his big excuse is: I am not good at initiating, which is true but still I don't want to always feel like I am doing all the work. I want him to take control. <br />
PLEASE HELP ME :(

That was a great article I have cheated emotionally before on my now wife. It was falling into my own insecurities and lust. I betrayed her and almost ended everything good about our relationship. It has been years, we forgave each other, we have to work very hard on us and keeping up communication and talk about it. It was difficult to see myself in the mirror for awhile and although the figure before stood shadowed I can now see a man in the reflection. If you have cheated you will have times of weakness and communicate with your partner or read and article like the one above to remind you of what really matters.

As a man who has has numerous affairs, I always wonder what it is I am missing that others put so much faith in single sex marriage.<br />
I love my wife but there are certain sexual positions and other things she will not indulge in. Therefore, instead of me pressuring her into doing something she doesn't want to, I go elsewhere.

i'm not condoning what he did, but when someone asks you to marry them (&amp; therefore be monogamous with you for the rest of their lives) you should make it easier for them by not withholding sex...don't do it if you don't want to, but if you almost never want it get help - it's the least you can do for them. <br />
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did he talk to you about your issues with sex? (if you have any, that is)

Marriage IS about sexual relations and intimacy. Want something different? Marry outside of humanity. Get rid of the sanctimonious Bible Babel too. Most priests and preachers I know and have heard speak will tell the "miserable offender" in the affair, you are sinning. Also he would tell the withholding asexual spouse, "You are sinning.(Not fulfilling the 'marriage contract.') We all share blame/responsibility in a marriage...we are just afraid to get out of it for many reasons. Until the cost overrides the rewards we all stay.

Sorry about your pains and thanks for sharing . Leviticus 20:10 . I had never known that bible has such teaching.

Internetsluts: Thank you for showing the human side to the equation of adultery. I am the husband of the same sort of marriage, except I was the one who was betrayed. Like your husband, my wife eventually came to regret her decision, even though she is not a Christian. The wounds never healed completely. She was left with residual feelings for the lover that she left to do the right thing for our son and never has regained a natural affection of a wife for a husband. <br />
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Our son was subjected to great pain. I went through major depression at the loss of knowing his whereabouts for 2.5 years (she ran away and hid). Both of our families were devastated. I know that social research has proven your point. Judith Wallerstein is a liberal social worker who for years advocated divorce in most bad situations. She then began a longitudinal study that was going to go as long as 15 to 25 years in which she followed the families that divorced. Her findings forced her to change her views— the only ones that appeared glad to leave the marriage in the end were those that left their spouses for someone else they had been having an affair with. The remaining spouse and the children were severely affected, emotionally and financially. Children of divorces are much less likely to marry than the normal population and are cynical in general about relationships. Mentally, depression is an issue.<br />
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I sympathize with those in a sexless marriage for I have been in one a long time. My wife has never converted to my faith nor has the marriage become real. I suffer a lot of loneliness and temptation, but I have concluded that I have to either trust my flesh or trust in God. With his strength, I hope to keep choosing the latter. Thank you for a needed post to help us all see reality.

Thank you for pointing out the collateral damage of an affair. I wish you well, counseling does help at least in my case. Trust was destroyed.

Sad, isn't it, how the cheater if often the one who comes out of the betrayal the least damaged. The cheater's children, the spouse of the person the cheater is stepping out with, other family members, and even friends are profoundly damaged by the cheater's actions. But hey, so long as the cheater feels "wanted", sexually gets their rocks off, or has "intimacy" (all great excuses!) who cares, right? This is a symptom of the "me" society that now dominates Western culture.

2 Cents: I understand most of what folks write. Some cannot understand. I have been married for14 years and the intimacy ended after the wedding. I'm not shy and my wife and I discussed all of this for years. I eventually came to understand that the discussions (yes, the discussions about needs, etc. themselves) and the pressure my wife felt over it all made her miserable.<br />
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This misery caused huge fights. The fights caused family strife. And not just with or about the sex. The pressure of my needs made her appear to hate every aspect of me. <br />
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At some point I figured it out. My wife likes me for my utility as a provider and someone that is very handy around the house. Without the pressure of my needs, she probably thinks I am pretty fun.<br />
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At some point after figuring all of this out and deciding that I would never again burden her with any of my needs (or my thoughts or anything that does not directly relate to her needs and her thoughts) things got much better for us.<br />
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But eventually (I guess almost inevitably) I met someone. She was an old friend and we eventually started having an affair. It has gone on for close to 5 years now. It is so good (great) in every possibly earthly sense of the word.<br />
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But there is a rub: I am an adulterer and she is an adulteress. We have never been caught, and may never be, but I am so ashamed of myself that I cannot stand it. My lover's marriage is a dreadful mess and she is miserable but will never admit that any of that has anything to do whatsoever with this affair. Her marriage was (is) not sexless or anything like that. Her husband loves her in some ways. This makes it even worse for me. I am destroying this woman. <br />
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Sex is not like food. Neither is heterosocial intimacy. I can live like I did for the first 9 years of my marriage for the rest of my life. I would be resentful when I saw happy affectionate couples, and daydream sometimes of how things could be, but I would live. I just would not watch certain movies.<br />
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But there are things we will never believe without trying them. Sometimes I wish I were homely or just undesirable so that this temptation would never have presented itself to me. At least then I could rest with the false understanding that I am a decent human being.

Zoroman, your question about the Sons of God or the Sons of Man depending on the exegesis of the Hebrew or Greek passage, is a good one. To answer it properly I would have to first say that it can only be answered with in the context of the Bible itself, that is, there are no texts that it references or refers to. Secondly, it must fit into a consistent interpretation of the text, specifically, as you point out, the BIble is not to be interpreted a verse at a time, but as an entire book. The interpreter cannot change his method to get the outcome that he desires.

That said, one must understand the book of Genesis that it comes from and the story therein, the 5 books of the Law known as the Pentateuch of which Genesis is one, and finally , it must be interpreted in light of Jesus Christ and how he fulfilled and gave meaning to the passages of the Old Testament, for the bible asserts that Jesus is the "Word" of God and he himself asserted that the scriptures were fulfilled in him.

The passage you speak of has had many interpretations, some as bizarre as angels having sex with women and creating a race of giants. This cannot be the final interpretation as it does not flow with the context in which it resides and because there is no support for such a conclusion in the rest of the BIble. Of the many ways to interpret it, I think that the early theologian, Augustus of Hippo (Egypt) and the Reformers properly interpreted it. They properly point out that the book of Genesis begins the clear story of the "two cities—the city of God and the city of man" The city of God is the line from from which God would bring forth the redeemer of man—Jesus Christ. The city of man represents satan and the unregenerate (those already determined to receive the wrath of God). The city of man constantly fights against the City of God in efforts to overcome it.

That being said it is easier to see the the meaning most likely has to do with the giants being giants of men, that is, strong warriors and adversaries of God's laws that were in the land for a period of time. I would contend that Luther's interpretation of those that fathered them being the earlier seed of Satan (not demonic or spiritual but those men who by the fact that they reject God, worship Satan).

IF we are to be candid we have to conclude that there are other possible interpretations, all of which do not end up with a bizarre conclusion that fits nowhere into the Bible. I don't think it will help to talk about the Hebrew as it is a language with great variability. The Greek Septuagint, translated from the Hebrew, must be interpreted with the understanding that the text is more limited.

I do believe that the BIble is God's only written letter to man. In it, God delivers the message that man is sinful and in need of a Savior to redeem him from his fall into evil. It then predicts the Savior through prophecy and historical events confirmed in later books or the New Testament, and reports his appearance. Men now reside on this side of the Cross while those that lived in the day of Genesis lived before the arrival and work of the Savior.

You are right to say that no man can know what God thinks. God is the only being that occupies eternity. He lives outside of time. He is so vast that the work of his hands, a mere creature, could never come close to understanding his whole.

He has, however stooped low in love to reveal that about him which is in the Bible. And those things CAN be known.

As for your last passage, why are the religious nut cases not citing the passage, I would respond that it serves ho purpose to cite it in reference to marriage, unless you also wish to cite the extensive references to marriage in Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Proverbs, some prophets, and the vast about mentioned in the first and second letters of Paul to the Corinthians. There are other references as well.

If I haven't answered sufficiently, let me know. Peace.