My story is simple: until that moment when some theist gives me absolute and verifiable proof that "God" exists, my children will continue to be told to seek out the truth and demand answers. I've raised 3 great little thinkers - all of whom identify as atheist :)
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32 Responses Dec 1, 2011

I'm sorry, some of my best friends are nymphs

see... :P

HEY I resemble both..... did I type that OOPS haha j/k

WTF, you come into this room and try to dictate the tone and words we use to describe moronic people who chant and speak to the sky as if something was there to hear them, you infer we should not adhere to the theme of this room , that of Indoctrinating your children with superstitious blather of gods and spooks is child abuse.<br />
Well, buddy, welcome to atheist land. Here we view your worship of invisible super beings as ludicrous and your justification of child abuse at the hands of perverted priests, Imams, Yogis and rabbis to be the height of ignorance and indifference.<br />
Steep yourself in whatever mythology you wish, flying zombies, stenographic angels, little blue androgynous Demi gods or wood nymphs but leave your children out of it until they are old enough to rationally accept your theological bullshit as opposed to being victimized by it.

Personally, I do not object to introducing Mythology to children. It is all in the presentation. After all how would children know to find the value of any lessons and not take it literally if they are never exposed.

why you gotta rag on the nymphs :( they didn't do anything to you :P j/k

I would try and be defensive but I'm having a really bad day with my tumours. The pain is off the scale today and it would be interesting to see how much abuse i get for saying this! If I was to fight then that is when I say dumb things!

very sorry to hear your in pain

see Anandadas, we are not heartless,

have you gotten checked by a doctor?

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I said to someone who was being very aggressive to me because I believed in God "do you like hurting people" and they said "no" so I replied "please don't just go up to someone and say God is a joke because we believe that God is a person and you are hurting me every time you get angry and say horrible things about God". I know this is a room for this sort of thing but some of your words are out to hurt and yes it is hurting. If that is your intention then yes you are successful. Why do some want to hurt only and not actually have a conversation. Notice I said some people and not all! Joking is good by the way.

In the interest of understanding, I would like to explain what I have come to know. There is a reason three topics are considered taboo, those three being; religion, politics, and sex. All three have one thing in common : intense emotional attachment to the subject. If ones does decide to engage in discussion of those three one must also expect that there will be emotional outbursts, you have to keep that in mind and do your best to discuss while keeping your emotions in check. ..... These kinds of discussions often feel more personal then they truly are, because of the intensity of the emotions they evoke.
In a room full of people who think the notion of a god is harmful and ridiculous you must remember it is that notion they are talking about. Most atheists I know could care less what you personally believe so long as they do not feel someone is pushing their beliefs on them, as soon as they feel that is happening they will fight tooth and nail....... Remember most people who belong in the big three religions have not had to fight (and fight hard) to preserve their beliefs and or defend them. Atheists and those of other religions CONSTANTLY are bombarded with Saviors and missionaries , We get no consideration what so ever regarding our beliefs, therefore none is given. Often we are asked to walk on eggshells in regard to their beliefs while NO consideration is give from the very ones who seek consideration.

I hope this helps you to understand where people are coming from so you do not take discussions in this topic personally.

I do find it frustrating that people forget we all have to live together and constantly being attacked in the real world is not the way forward for any of us. I'm very much interested in sociology and what makes us all tick and I respect athiest beliefs even though I'm not one myself because there are a lot of pretentious gits out there who pretend to be Gods right hand man and use religion for their own selfish gain. With what I know about humans and belief systems I could make up a philosophy and con people using all the dirty tricks in the book but I respect an individuals choice in life and have no desire for prestige. Imagine if hell was real, eternal or temporary then what happens to the con artists who use religion to become rich and famous because that punishment must be the harshest of them all! When I say I respect athiests I don't mean that in a patronising way either. Just because I have a belief it does not make me better than anyone else.

the converse can also be said. not believing in a god does not make one better either, just different. Your attitude of respecting another s beliefs is rare among "believers" and unfortunately Years of being trampled on by believers works against you, we have heard the sales pitch and justifications over and over so the hint of it evokes a defensive posture that is akin to survival mode.

Children do not need the threat of eternal damnation to do the right thing...............REPLY........I couldn't agree more and no matter what one believes emotional blackmail is disgusting, my mother used dirty tricks to try to emotionally blackmail me but eventually the child rebels when they get their own mind, hopefully. Thankfully I don't believe in eternal damnation because if it was true then it means God is not forgiving, whereas in some beliefs they say hell is temporary. If God existed he must be the most forgiving without obvious sentimental feelings. Anyway no matter what one believes you can't beat bringing a child up with love and I would hate myself if I was to convert someone and it destroyed a family, honest!

Your post also brings to the forefront another point I believe strongly in regrading children and religion. .....Even among those who practice the same religion there are variances Which is to say that ones religion/spirituality is a very individual and personal thing. If one does not know themselves or have the tools to truly make up their own mind, you run the risk of polluting their unique understanding. If the notion of god makes sense to them that understanding has to be reprocessed and re digested internally regardless if they where exposed to religion or not, We all go through that period of questioning. Indoctrinating serves to make that process more agonizing and difficult then it should be , and if they choose something that differs from their parents or none at all That process that should be natural becomes Harmful to their "spirit". I have seen this happen countless times, and it breaks my heart.

To address the idea of instilling values in children without the notion of god. <br />
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I have heard it said that one can not instill good values in children without god, and I tell you that is nonsense. It is harder sure, however that difficult rout is often the most beneficial to us humans. <br />
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Human beings have a sense of right and wrong that is intrinsic to our nature. It is as we are growing up that selfishness clouds our inner compass it is in those times that we as parents must remind our children they are not the center of the universe. Children do not need the threat of eternal damnation to do the right thing. I have found that an appreciation that life is fragile and precious weighs far more importance on ones "spirit" than fear, the additional benefit being their general outlook is more positive. They are more inclined to be genuinely kind, thoughtful and helping. <br />
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Regardless of where anyone thinks our in born moral compass comes from, the fact is most of us have it. For those who were not born with a sense of right and wrong more often then not religious doctrine tends to twist into something dark and dangerous. If one is trusting in outside forces you might : Miss clues and signs that should prompt you to get your child help, or. Worse do nothing but pray god will make it all better.

Thank you cheeky because I feel the same as you and I promise I'm not here to start fighting, I'm just fed up with one individual who keeps insisting on me to try and prove the existence of God when I have no desire to do it! I don't understand why he thinks I should be converting, I'm just adding a point of view which isn't the end of the world. I also try and see things from different perspectives but I'm stil a normal human being with imperfections etc. I must admit the hostility is very fierce to say the least..

Thank you cheeky because I feel the same as you and I promise I'm not here to start fighting, I'm just fed up with one individual who keeps insisting on me to try and prove the existence of God when I have no desire to do it! I don't understand why he thinks I should be converting, I'm just adding a point of view which isn't the end of the world. I also try and see things from different perspectives but I'm stil a normal human being with imperfections etc. I must admit the hostility is very fierce to say the least..

Just in reference to this thread/story , it looks like you are the first to mention Proof of God, and that I think is where the tangent began. just from this story alone (i don't know if this is actually a carry over from other conversations or not) , It seems the tangent was somewhat unintentional.

Yeah it was a carry on from elsewhere and to be honest it would probably start silly fighting which is very mind numbing to say the least. I'm saying the fighting is silly not the people fighting by the way, I'm sure you figured that one anyway. With me my condition affects my emotions in a big way and if I feel like I'm getting greif I may say dumb things, so avoiding them is the best policy. I don't want sympathy, i just thought I would explain a bit more to you because I respect your words.

Well I do thank you.for explaining.

Anandadas<br />
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Your posts have gone very much off topic of this thread. , However they do hint to an underlying reality, Those of us who believe strongly that our Children Spirituality is Their own decision Are in constant struggle with Those who would usurp parental authority and interject their beliefs upon OUR children.<br />
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Our Children are often seen as fair game for those who think they have a right to interfere because they are Convinced Their religion is best. <br />
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Rather then trying to CONVERT or save SOMEONE ELSE S child, why not live a good life and be an example and an inspiration to the people in general. <br />
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The notion if God exists or What version of God is right is NOT the topic here.

Actually cheeky I like your words and can't disagree especially the bit about living a good life as an example. I promise I'm not here to try and convert anyone because really that is a huge responsibility and there are a lot of vultures who pray on weak minded people

I respect your decision on how you bring up your children and in the same way I respect any way a child is brought up as long as the values are good like no stealing etc. I think we should all agree on that rather than fighting or looking for differences.

The notion if God exists or What version of God is right is NOT the topic here.........REPLY....I agree so wholeheartedly, honest!

you said "I think we should all agree on that rather than fighting or looking for differences.".... And I do agree on that. However a reasonable and civil discussion can bring understanding and tolerance where there once was fear and disdain.

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I offered my opinion to both of my kids but they know its only my opinion and no one knows everything. It is important to teach independent thinking because it is the key to ob<x>jectivity.

When are you going to understand I have not told you my beliefs but yet for some reason you know my beliefs better than me because when you try and describe it I don't recognise any of it. So in the future when asked what I believe I'll send them to you for your accurate expert knowledge! After all you are now my GURU, NAMASTE GURUDEVA, GURUDEVA KI JAYA

When are you going to understand I have not told you my beliefs but yet for some reason you know my beliefs better than me because when you try and describe it I don't recognise any of it. So in the future when asked what I believe I'll send them to you for your accurate expert knowledge! After all you are now my GURU, NAMASTE GURUDEVA, GURUDEVA KI JAYA

trouble maker why do you bother speaking to me when you keep saying you won't????? Is this bull poo coming out of your mouth because you were obsessed with my bull poo. Why say you are ignoring me then speak to me. Your telling lies all the time. I tell you now I have no desire to change your opinion because I think your lowlife who deserves to be in illusion. So now you have a degree in sanskrit like you have found out a big You don't understand ananda as much as you think you do because it has deeper meaning but you don't want a lesson in languages now. <br />
Do you know what your saying about demanding proof, you don't deserve it and how about free will, God has to respect your free will, what if there is no desire for god then how can free will exist if evidence was in your face. This is a fantastic point and if you ignore it then my you're really stupid, a lot more than i could ever imagine.

KUDOS!!! a parents Job is to guid their children to independence, they can not be independent if they can not think for themselves. !!!! Good for you!

Stick to your guns, "well intentioned" People will try to "save" them. I know I am constantly doing damage control and running interference on behalf of my son. Even when they get to an age when they can speak up for themselves, It helps to know Mom has their back when it comes to establishment institutions.

I'm serious dig a hole and you will find him but unless you do stop asking for this proof that you want so desperately

I'm serious dig a hole and you will find him but unless you do stop asking for this proof that you want so desperately

Stephen Hawkins is not an athiest any

To anybody reading this Troublemaker keeps asking me to debate the existence of God with the expectations of proof when I don't have the desire to give him or anyone proof of why i believe what I do. I don't understand why it is down to me to prove anything and this constant obsession with it is so funny because I give him my reasons and he just won't show any respect whatsoever. I don't want to talk about my personal beliefs because of how offensive people comments and statements are and if someone was genuinely interested but not to show who has the biggest brains like a competition of false ego's then yeah I would talk about it. I first met TM in a room i created asking for comments about the tittle being prejudice because no way can we know all religions to know that all religions abuse children. Anyway trouble woul;dn't comment once about the tittle but at least i gave him a reason why i won't talk about my beliefs whereas he just kept asking me for proof and no reason why he keeps ignoring the prejudiced issues. It just seems so hypocritical. Don't just condemn without knowing the whole truth. He has blocked me but yet still keeps making comments to me everywhere i go and really I wish he would stick to his words. Another liar and cheat to add to the list!!!!

Troublemaker go outside your house dig a hole 30 metres deep and then 90 metres accross and you will find God! Trust me God is at the very end of the hole. <br />
You cannot argue with me saying God is not there untill you have dug the hole OK!!!! THERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT YOU WANT now lets see how much you want it!!!! So now please stop asking me for evidence.

Trouble maker I bet you were born with long arms so you can pat yourself on the back for being better than me!!! Oh well disabled and religious anything else you want to condemn me for, breathing the same air as an athiest because after all we must hate each other for what we believe shouldn't we. This side that side lets start a war shall we and blame religion when really it is your spiteful comments that have offended. MMMMM sounds familiar to me pass the buck!

Wow. Ananadadas has really gotten riled up here. I came for the story and got the double dose of drama!<br />
Creationists too often call theories like the Big Bang, incredidulous and preposterous because according to them, nothing can begin from nothing. In place of our scientifically guided notions, they offer instead their theory - that an imaginary being that always was, made EVERYTHING! (out of nothing!).....<br />
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Now, I'm just a lowly old Atheist, raised by hippies in the wilds of Los Angeles, but I am pretty sure that even there, piling absurdity upon absurdity is in no way a negation of it. <br />
While I am certain there is no 'guy in the sky' or 'god' as so many fondly call that imaginary friend, I have absolutely no doubt that Anandadas HAS had a 'god' experience... In other words, perhaps he's felt an overwhelming closeness with everything, or 'oneness' or felt that god's 'grace'.. like that. Of course to us, that ISN'T 'proof'' but I am sure it is to HIM.. (I'm pretty sure that's what he was trying to say, but maybe god tripped him up.) But the point IS... My own experience is pretty real - I remember having multiple profound experiences while walking with my old friend Mescalito.. (Peyote- to you modern kids).... and While it all SEEMED QUITE REAL.... I feel sure it wouldn't be prudent to go to a "Drugs **** Up Your Mind " group and explain how, "No, I am the exception to that rule, Drugs told me so..."<br />
Ya, I guess I'm just rambling now...<br />
Time to roll a doob.

Damn,Dude... You're all ****** up. I was trying to HELP YOU and defend your (ridiculous) point of view!
Wow, I guess you're just a hater.. so sad.

Have you got any pineapple express, it smells devine!!!!

LOL. Maybe if it'll calm you down. Seriously, comment, disagree - but THINK! It's likely the reason that you're here. EVERYONE has personal experiences that are quite 'real' to them, and Atheists (generally) would never discount such, what we DO defend against are the notions that Atheism is a 'belief' that can be overcome by an unprovable notion. Personal experience is NOT EVIDENCE that anyone else can or should ever take as valuable, so it must be dismissed immediately. The reason we post here- is to share our experience dealing with those who INSIST that their own way of thinking is somehow 'righter' than those whose ideas differ... If it wasn't clear in my Peyote analogy, it should be now.

Who the hell do we think we are to be so demanding to find the truth, have you ever thought the truth needs revealing only with respect and humility! I wouldn't give nobody anything if they come up to me demanding stuff, I'd tell you where to go!

Here is one thought not an argument.....In this world there are boundaries which means there is always something beyond, so what is beyond this world, then whats beyond the universe, then what's beyond that and what's beyond that etc etc and if there is no God then how or where does it end if at all, but always there must be something beyond, but if God exists then God is perfectly complete and completely perfect with nothing beyond and is eternal which means no beginning and no end!<br />
To me this is the only logical answer to the "what's beyond" question otherwise a concept of completeness cannot ever make sense. Endlessness can make me feel like we don't really exist because you cannot get something from nothing. It's impossible. So what is the beginning of one single atom!!!!! The beginning of matter, like what created the stuff to start a big bang, you can't get something from nothing again!

I am being honest, calm and collected. I think there are no deities because there`s not a spec of evidence for it so I see no reason to think otherwise, that`s all there is to it. Theistic or spiritual faith is irrationnal and delusional and I happen to be a rational person. I didn`t see any absolute statements on here, did anyone outright say "there is no god, period, end of story, you`re wrong, I`m right, etc".

I see passive aggressive behavior. Perhaps your bi-polar *friend* just needs to learn to play nice and not attack everyone who disagrees with his ASSertions...

I don't believe you want proof anyway! Or the only proof you are interested in is the one that suits you!

First of all one must look inside themselves and be honest and sincere and to those that offend others so easily will never get proof because they don't deserve it and it isn't really your desire. The proof has to be desired not demanded. This is very good advice and hasn't been said so you can personally attack me, it's about one looking inside and being respectful. Your all making absolute statements with anger without knowing enough about the subject. Listen if God existed then why is it so ellusive, think about it if you can look outside the box, maybe it is the most secret of all secrets and you don't know how to unlock those secrets and not every religious person knows either. But demanding the truth like a stupid child will never reveal anything.

Actually the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, especially when said claim goes against all evidence. Also atheism is *not* a belief system, to quote a funny video from youtube, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying bald is an hair color.

I don`t think I know everything, that would be more on the theistic side. There are lots of things I don`t know and I`m glad about it, learning makes things interesting. I don`t believe what suits me, I believe whatever is more plausible or makes more sense.

think about it honestly you do believe what suits you honest, I'm not being nasty because everyone does it!

Are you all agreeing with a sheep like mentality or are you actually aware that it is not my responsibilty to provide proof and please stop using that as a reason for criticising me. My answer to proof is become qualified and properly desire the proof. I have my own proof which is very personal and no ones business. I can bring something by pointing out that athiesm is as much a belief that is dependant on faith in something or someone as a person who believes in God so being critical for having faith is not fair. Not all religions are the same is another thing I can bring because I've noticed that condemnation of all belief systems is happening when it's obvious that peoples only experiences are maybe just the christian beliefs. I'm not a christian and not anything with a label really, I'm just me! Which means I don't belong to any groups but the word religion means to unite with God so in that sense I'm religious. Really a lot of sweeping statements are being made when a lot of us don't belong to the groups your all complaining about. Knowledge like this is what I can bring so the picture is clearer. You will have better arguments with more knowledge so we all can get something surely that is better than suit saying because the men are trying to flirt with the women really and say what they think women want to hear. I noticed Trouble shooter loves to impress women and flirt with them rather than discuss with mutual respect, he tries to control me and put words into my mouth with his assumptions. I still haven't proved God is all he says when I've never said I would and won't stop going on about it, very strange person and I gave him my reasons but still he won't respect my reply. I don't mind discussing but I have no desire to show off my intelligence by fighting.

I've come here to have a conversation with logic and have no desire to abuse or disrespect and thought having an opinion was something everyone is entitled to. Troubleshooter is as his name suggests a troublemaker who kept ignoring a simple statement and instead wanted to personaly attack me, I'm quite within my rights to stick to one point. Why do people expect others to have the same views as themselves and when it doesn't suit they tell you to go away? I have to tolerate real nasty behaviour of a lot of cruel people and I'm not supposed to be defensive either, i'm expected to lay down like a hippy while ignorance wants to control. What can a person do when a simple thing is ignored, should I let others control like they are trying to do now. I hope that fascism never enters my personal life like I have experienced on here!

I have many reasons for coming here and the main one is because I can! Simple really! I believe that proof that you are so trying to find is something a person must be qualified for and not something that you can demand just at the click of the fingers which is very arrogant.. I believe that offensive behaviour blinds a person especially if good innocent people are being criticised. In fact some beliefs call offending behaviour towards good people "the mad elephant offence" because of how destructive the offence is towards spiritual growth. You will never find any answers by being offensive and critical, obviously in your perfect intelligence it cannot exist anyway. This is why I'm not going to make you believe in God or even see it as my duty, to be honest I can't think of anything more that could possibly be a waste of time. People who like to offend are a complete waste of time trying to prove anything. They will never comprehend because the illusory energy is very powerful and exists for a reason. In Bhagavad Gita it says that to the non believers God comes in the form of death , which is a bit too late then, so I do actually believe in a process. Also because of my strong belief in free will and I can see that you already have all the answers you want, I don't want to mess up your desire to not believe in God. If God existed would you really want to meet him because that desire must be there very strongly!

It seems to me that it would serve you best to stick with topics that coincide with your world view.&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;REPLY
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like to look outside the box to learn things.

Stop trying to control and just accept I'm here please or would it please you to tell me how to live aswell, how I should deal with my disability, whether i can have pain relief or not. If you like you can control my thoughts too!!

Do you just want to offend? If you read what I've put then you will understand why I believe you will never see or understand God even if it was to jump out and slap you on the face! I believe in having to live in the same world but why should religious people have to accept abuse when it is abuse what the tittle is complaining about.

How can the name "Troubleshooter" suggest that he is a trouble maker?

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If God existed and someone was demanding of proof instead of respectfully asking for proof then no way would the proof be forthcoming, why should it, but when a person doesn't get proof then false ego comes into play because the individual starts thinking that they are the best in the world and if they don't have proof then it can't exist. Pride and false ego is very destructive no matter which way you look at it!

so how can you get your proof that you demand, with God respecting your free will? How can these two things go hand in hand, think about it properly because it has everything to do with ego (ego means the self) because your free will must be respected

instead of critical thinking try and focus on respectful thinking too

" but when a person doesn't get proof then false ego comes into play because the individual starts thinking that they are the best in the world"

How would not having proof leads to that kind of ego? Sloppery slope logical fallacy my friend.

I cut my own path in this world, even though I had a religion handed down to me while I was growing up. When I got out of the house, I started researching astral projection and came across a lot of material. While I take it all with a grain of salt, some of it has been very interesting to read and parts of it ring true with me. My search for my own personal truth continues, but I feel like i am close to finding it.<br />
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One quote I agree with completely: "The earth is what we all have in common."

You biotches are making me blush and wanting to party with ya. Kisses and good luck in your research. Kim, do stroke my ego more, I love it!!!!!!!!Kim

For me, In many ways I agree, but it seems you may be teaching the atheist view, I prefer to teach children nothing, except the easter bunny, toth fairy and santa. My mom raised me as a bible thumper, and I laugh at it now but the experience gives me an insigjt that I wouldnt have had, fuel against peeps that preach at me. I have found a path that is just for me, I dont have kids, but if I did, I would share some of my openess to explore and teach them if they like it, the spirit in nature. I am sister to the wind, that is why I say this, my native name is Wind Spirit Dancer, so I would do as I do with kids around me that are not mine ( gotta babysit these little dudes some) show them really neat things outside, like the greenest moss or a weird shaped tree, collect little itty bitty pine trees, watch hawks in the sky, etc. And yeah I nudge fairly hard, but they are learning and the smaller ones are learning about nature, They will later know in their selves the spirit in which is involved in the wind. I will for now teach them the joy of a cool breeze in summer and that it is the wind that brings us the shower of fall leaves that we try to catch. Just a thought