Post
Experience Project iOS Android Apps | Download EP for your Mobile Device

Oh Yeah!!!!

The other day I went with my foster kids (age two and three) to a play centre with my friend and her "spirited" as she likes to say, two year old. Afterwards we went to Mcdonalds for lunch. The whole of the time at the play centre her daughter was throwing tantrums because she wanted all of the toys and would not share with any of the other kids. My friend was running around after her continuously and then got into an argument with another mother because her daughter bit the other woman's child. During the meal she refused to sit at the table and when she did, she didn't eat anything, just poked her burger and mashed it in her hand. My friend then gave her cake when she wasn't eating it.

My foster kids all know that they share their toys or they don't get to play. If they are naughty, they get a time out. At meal times, they sit at the table, use manners to the best of their ability and they make an effort to eat their food. They do this or the food is taken away and they go hungry. It didn't take them long to learn these boundaries. I don't think this is cruel because they have a choice whether to behave or not, if they choose not to behave they have to live with the consequences.

After this play date, my friend asked me what I did to make my foster kids so well behaved and when I told her she seemed really shocked that I was "so strict" with them. She said she didn't believe in being that hard on her daughter because she is only two and she didn't want her to grow up without any confidence.

I feel that discipline is something kids need in the same way as love. They need guidance and it is our job to teach them acceptable behaviour. I think there is too much of this new political correctness in raising kids. Generations have tuned out fine getting told "no!" by mothers, so why are we worrying now? If you are not being abusive in discipline, your kids will be fine. I think more parents need to think about that.

RobertaSunset RobertaSunset 36-40, F 57 Responses Oct 7, 2009

Your Response

Cancel

Funny you should say that, being an English program, we get a lot of supernanny on different channels. I think lots of her ways are very good and it shows you don't have to hit kids to teach them boundaries. I don't know if my friend watches it or not but I'm not about to suggest it cause I value or friendship too much, I think it might just be that she will have to learn the hard way...

Tell her to watch Supernanny on W Network

And badly behaved adults go on to raise badly behaved children, it's a vicious circle that just goes on and on.

Too bad more people don't think like you Robbo. We'd have a better world with less selfish, self centered, badly behaved adults if they did. Frequently a badly behaved adlut was a poorly disciplined child.

Montarlot, you are straight to the point and absolutely correct. If you don't say no to a child when their behaviour is not acceptable you are telling them lies. You are saying anything goes and life is always on your side. The real world is not like that. There are setbacks and disappointments and there are other people who need to be thought about. What would life be like if we all did exactly what we wanted all of the time with no consideration for others?

I think a parent needs to teach a child boundaries from a very young age, not to start when the child is 6, 7 or 8. They are formed by then through any bad habits they had learned and it may be too late to start imposing rules! I don't understand why people decide to become parents if they aren't willing to work at it. Parenting is hard work and an undisciplined parent will only result in bringing up an undiscplined child who, chances are, will not adapt well socially. I have seen too many parents today whereby the child is the parent and the parent is the child. They try to be "friends" with the child and cannot impose any rules as a result. The damage is done. If you can't be a good parent don't have kids. Our world is overpopulated as it is. What I'm saying is not politically correct but true.

Well I too am going to take cc5439's advice. I have stated my opinion and that is enough unless anyone else comments with new points.

well some kids are that way others aren't regardless of parenting <br />
<br />
and at a party like that there were things to entertail him

thats NOT what i said <br />
<br />
i know you can read so stop with the stupid <br />
<br />
two year olds should only be expected to stay at the table until they have finished their food thats it <br />
<br />
if they do more than that great <br />
<br />
but expecting more is only going to exasperate the child <br />
and creating more work for yourselves

sleepless, robbo~it's a losing battle here. I would not bother trying to justify yourself to someone who is clearly very damaged and very angry. She seems unwilling to believe that discipline or boundaries can be imposed on toddlers without it being abusive, which is very sad. You both sound like wonderful care givers!! (not that you need my approval...).

i did not take this personally <br />
<br />
i did not jump to any conclusion that was not a logical possibilty

tulick, you have taken this post very personally. I applaud your desire to defend child victims, but maybe you should consider being more open minded and not jumping to conclusions....just a thought. good luck to you.

here's a shoker for you <br />
<br />
I DON"T WANT KIDS GOD WILLING WILL NEVER HAVE ANY KNOW I DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT TAKING CARE OF THEM AND THERFORE HAVE CHOSEN TO KEEP MY LEGS CLOSED <br />
<br />
having said that i will say that i will defend kids today who are victims of the no discpline cultual backlash because i was one and i know what it feels like to be in their shoes <br />
<br />
and i don't know what that daycare worker does to keep those kids sitting through meals oe you do to keep them in line- and i don't wanna know i can guess <br />
<br />
but i will not sit silent as to later be a victim of one of these kids because thwy snapped dealing with one of you and the thousands like you <br />
<br />
troubled you call me- contact with people like you will do that

tulick: Judging by the avatar you have chosen, the aggressive nature of your comments on here and what you say in your profile: "tulick is a crazy ***** on a very short fuse and is feeling very enraged". It is clear you are an extremely troubled person.<br />
It is extremely lucky that you do not have children of your own yet. I hope and prey that when you do, you will also develop the maturity and attitude to cope with the responsibility, because if not, I fear that you will be forced to accept the assistance of social services and foster carers just like me.

i read the comments aparently you didn't read them or the ones by people who disagree with them as i do <br />
<br />
i don't care how much training she or anyone has doesn't mean she's any good at it <br />
<br />
dido with the daycare worker doing it for years who thinks 2 year olds on average can sit though a meal she's totally wrong no matter how many years she's been doing it

Tullick, you can think what you want, but it doesn't mean you're right.<br />
Robbo's kids are obviously happy and thriving little people. Did you not even read any of her comments ?

you can think what you want- but it doesn't mean your right <br />
<br />
the sad thhing is by the time anyone figures out your wrong the damage will be done

The children in my care have grown in confidence and ability. They are happy, loving and really bright kids who bring a great deal of joy to my life. They are also included in many different social settings. I have had a very intensive, eleven month assessment from social services prior to becoming a foster carer and I have looked after many children. I am secure in the knowledge that I am doing my absolute best for them as I have not based any of my understanding of child development on watching "Oprah" I think it is best if we agree to disagree!

ok for those of you who are determinded to act stupid or pretend you can't read <br />
<br />
i SAID the parent should START teaching sharing but NOT expect mastery of the skill<br />
<br />
i SAID they sit that the table long enough to eat their food <br />
<br />
i have NO problem with boundries and limitations but i do have a problem with UNREALISTIC expecations as i see in my freinds oldest it does nothing but exasperate kids <br />
<br />
i also have a BIG problem with the author looking at this woman and her kid for one day and making such sweeping judgements offering NO help <br />
<br />
you bring up doing what's best for your child well who's to say the woman wasn't doing that you also have to look at individual kids and their developmental level they may be 2 but they are at the lower end developmentally and not as evloved as somome elses kid <br />
<br />
i also said only child vs. multiple child homes and that is likely the reason the kid behaved that way and the other was so well behaved because they have seen sharing modled as well as good and bad behavior and the results of each<br />
<br />
Bettey has it right and kids should not be subjected to a militeristic upbringing <br />
<br />
all of what i said is even more important considering the author is dealing with foster children you HAVE to have REASONABLE expectations in this case expectations that take into account what they have already been through <br />
<br />
otherwise they might as well be kept with their abusive neglectful parents because you are only inflicting more damage of a different kind

tulick...you sound very, very angry and bitter. I think that when you have your own child you will see that it is not all about what experts say or what someone else does with their own children. You will hopefully do what works for you and your child and try to raise a child that can successfully function as an adult. You keep attacking people that make statements about setting boundaries and limitations for young children and it seems that maybe you have not experienced this or seen this work in a positive way. A two year old is capable of sitting at a table to eat a meal for a short period of time while using basic manners. This really is NOT too much to ask. A 2 or 3 year old is capable of sharing; in fact, most share very well and willingly offer toys to playmates. If a parent waits until a kid is 5 or 6 to begin teaching basic manners and appropriate ways of socializing, they will have a terror on their hands and a much tougher job ahead of them. I wish you the best of luck.

i don't have kids but i was one as was impulsive <br />
<br />
my freind has a 2 year old a 4 year old and a 5 month old and i see what that kind of "dicipline" does to her oldest in 5 years he will have stopped listening and in 10 will have a drug problem <br />
<br />
so pardon me for thinking i have a tiny clue and just because i don't work in a daycrare or haven't crapped a kid out of my crotch doesn't mean my eyes and ears don't work nor does it mean my insticts are off <br />
<br />
i know i don't want my future tax dollars paying for therapy for my freinds kids or for the kids the author fosters because both of them rule with an iron fist <br />
<br />
nor do i want one of those well manner kids slitting my thoat robbing me at gun point or some other sh-t because what they are doing now causes the kid to snap at some point

Impulsive, Luckypickle, and Tulick....<br />
<br />
Do any of you have children? Have any of you ever worked with kids?<br />
Please answer this question.

you start teaching them at 2 they start learing to feed themselves use a fork you teach them <br />
<br />
you start to teach sharing at 2 not expect masrtry of the skill

I think that Imp makes a good point..although as they get older you should enforce it..but they are only children once..let them enjoy it a bit.

what the hell? your expection from children at such a young age will earn you nothing but there resentment. it does nothing for them and will just further drive you away from them. i know this for a fact cuz my own mother did it to me. i think you need to have resonable expections of your children. resonable in that dont expect them to know there manners at the table or to share there toys.

not really

your thinking 4 year old not 2 year old <br />
<br />
my freinds little boy just tured 2 at his birthday party he had cake from one end of him to the other because he was let play in it once finished eating <br />
<br />
my freinds 4 year old is still a very active kid who doesn't still still very long <br />
<br />
i'm also basing this on the host of 2 year olds i've seen in public places w/ parents who were mindful of them and trying to teach them

they sit long enough to finish their food thats it

2 year olds don't share and your reaction to what apears to be an only child is the disterbing thing <br />
<br />
you expect 2 year olds to sit at the table until done eating and you expect to watch and notice when they are playing more than eating and remove the food so the kid doesn't throw it <br />
<br />
THAT IS A RESONABLE EXPECTATION for the child's age if they go beyond that great <br />
<br />
you can START teaching sharing at age 2 and you anticipate that an only child who has never seen that modled is going to take a little longer to grasp the concept <br />
<br />
THAT IS A RESONABLE EXPECTATION <br />
<br />
the reason your 2 year old shares so well at this age is because he sees it at home with other kids or in daycare where ever but if the other child doesn't have any of that what do you expect <br />
<br />
and instead of saying to the parent GENTALLY ways that they can start to teach sharing and such your looking down your nose at them <br />
<br />
when the kid wouldn't sit down and was playing with the food instead of sugessting the child wasn't hungery and to pack up the food save it for later and do something else with the child while you and yours finished eating or whatever <br />
<br />
you bash them as "bad" parents <br />
<br />
and you ARE too strict as you expect more out of your children than they can possibly give you which will lead to nothinng but trouble

Lilt: I am so much! :o) They are truly amazing and give me a reason to get up in the morning. I can't have my own children so to have such wonderful kids in your life is such a gift!

Wonderful thoughts there, Robbo.<br />
Those kids are lucky to have you.<br />
And it also sounds like you feel lucky to have them in your life, as well.<br />
:)

Wow! Thanks everyone for all of your comments on this, there are some really intelligent and thoughtful comments as well as some misguided ones but I am grateful to everyone spending time to read this and sharing all your opinions with me.<br />
<br />
Firstly I want to make it very clear that I NEVER let my children go hungry for any length of time, If they haven't eaten dinner and are later hungry, they are offered a healthy snack such as apple pieces or carrot sticks but will not get things like cake, biscuits or sweets in this instance.<br />
<br />
I don't have any birth children of my own but being a foster carer, I am fairly experienced where children are concerned. Every child is different and all have their individual quirks in their personality, however they all respond to clear boundaries. <br />
As far as I can see, the key to effective discipline is to be fair and consistent. It is not always straight forward where foster kids are concerned because they have contact with their parents and nursery placements who work to their own boundaries, this is sanctioned by the courts so is beyond my control. It even more important for me to be consistent with my own boundaries, the kids get enough mixed messages as it is!<br />
<br />
Some people have said that they believe that two years old is too young to be expecting a child to sit at the table and share their toys. Obviously you have to take into consideration the child's ability to understand and they often need to be reminded but two years old is certainly not too young! I believe that you are building the foundations of good behaviour at this age, so start as you mean to go on.<br />
<br />
My thoughts on discipline and confidence:<br />
I think that those of us who are trying to raise confident kids need to be mindful of the language that we use when disciplining, for example, yelling "your such a dirty boy!" is not a good idea and the poor kid will grow up thinking he is dirty if he hears it enough! but doing and saying nothing is not good either. Both of the children tidy all their toys away after they have done playing (and yes even the two year old!!!) I think carrot works better than stick so I'll say "tidy your toys up and you can watch cartoons... wow! that's great! You've done a great job of tidying, who wants to watch fireman Sam?" They know that if they don't tidy, they don't get the cartoons, of course they don't have to work for everything and they sometimes get treats "just because" but in general, that's the way of the world isn't? Whoever got a job promotion for phoning in sick every day?<br />
<br />
Kids need to feel good about them selves so I think it is good to point out when they are doing really well and are behaving nicely.

but they must be REASONABLE expectations <br />
<br />
it is unreasonable to expect a 2 year old to sit through a meal or to be any good at sharing by that at that age particlarlly an only child <br />
<br />
reasonable would be to expect the child to sit until they finish their food to expect to START teaching the child to share at that age <br />
<br />
the author of this story does god knows what to keep her kids in line and as they get older those unrealistic expectations will be just as devastating as they presume "no discipline" will be to the other child

I am amazed at some of the comments on such a positive story.<br />
<br />
This is about teaching children expectations, respect, boundaries, and love. I think they call it "parenting." And it begins the day you hold the child for the first time. The learning begins with their first touch.

they have the worst idea actually

judging someone based on reading one post on Ep is probably not very accurate, jessicamc. My guess is that her kids do not go hungry for hours and days~I have excused my children from the table many times and they certainly have lived to tell about it.....<br />
<br />
robbo~it sounds to me as if you have the right idea and are trying to raise well behaved children. Good for you.

Your foster children should be taken away because you just don't let a 2 and 3 year old go hungry. You can get them to behave just as well without taking their food away. Shame on you for ever letting two babies go hungry!

Way to go, girl. Children feel more protected and less confused when they have boundaries. It is never too early to start learning manners and how to treat other people respectfully. One of the toughest things about being a two year-old is the heartbreak when they realize the world doesn't revolve around them. So much better that they learn at two instea of 22. Keep your head up and try to bear with your friend, looks like she's going to learn the hard way and she'll need a good friend. Good luck.

I too am a parent of a two yr old and i do agree with this...to a point. There's nothing wrong with taking the food away, they probably just aren't hungry at that point...thats why you offer a healthy snack for them later on, they eat when they are hungry. My daughter knows her manners to a point but shes two...they do forget. Parents need to parent and not worry about what other people do or dont do and what they think of your parenting style as long as you are not abusive. Im strict to a point and i do say no to my two year old! Sometimes you just have to. They need to know that you mean it and are consistant with your disciplne...otherwise it sends a mixed message. I give my daughter timeouts and she may not like them but it holds them responsible for their actions, and at the same time alot of redirection. My older kids have said thanks for being so strict, i see why now. So i say each to their own.

my problem is the author has unrealistic expectations that will only damage the kids in the long run most 2 year olds will not sit through a meal <br />
<br />
if you have one that naturally does great <br />
<br />
wanna keep a 2 year old from throwing food watch them when they start playing in it more than eating they are done- remove the food and you clean less walls <br />
<br />
sharing can begin to be taught at age 2 but also don't go overboard w/ it like my freind who seems to think all toys are a comunal pot and the kids never get anything that is just theirs <br />
<br />
also i don't understand the critisim of the other womans child who aprears to be an only child why should the child share its a perk of being an only child and part of that mindset <br />
<br />
i do qestion why the woman brought the 2 year old to the play place anyway she would have been better off with lend and learn or a toy rental place instead especailly at that age

tulick~parenting is all about trial and error, believe it or not. we make mistakes and hopefully do it better next time. No one "expert" has all the answers, and no method of teaching or discipline works the same for all kids. I have three teenage boys and they are all very different...a privilege lost might be the end of the world for one of them and cause them to get their act together, but the same exact loss may mean nothing to one of the others....(I have one that can't live without video games, and one that couldn't care less about video games...you find what is meaningful for them individually).<br />
<br />
children are very "moldable"~they learn as newborns to cry to get their needs met, they learn as toddlers that repeating that "bad" word they overheard daddy say gets them laughter and attention. If they want something and are told no and that is that, well, then it is over. If they throw a fit and mom and dad give in, well, they learn something there too. Kids are a blank slate for us to inscribe upon~it is an honor and a privilege and a responsibility. Given a loving environment with parents that allow a child to feel the consequences for his actions (ex.~if susie refuses to share with Johnny so Johnny gets up and goes home, Susie cries because she has no one left to play with~mom points out that maybe next time she will share with Johnny or be nice to Johnny so he will stay and play with her). It really is all about the natural consequences that we all experience in life and children are never too young to learn. You meet kids where they are and expect no more than what is appropriate for their age and comprehension, but you still have expectations for them.<br />
<br />
"Experts" rarely have the answers. All they have are ideas and suggestions and when you have your own kids I hope that you will follow your own instincts about your child and not listen to the "experts".<br />
<br />
qonyuin~you empower them by giving them choices. Allow them to always be the one that chooses their path (as in the example above) because then they begin to see the correlation between their choices and the consequences. If my son chooses not to do his homework and gets grades below what we have agreed are acceptable, the consequence is that he loses his car privileges. This is not a punishment imposed by me, it is the consequence for his own decision . It works for younger kids, also. Instead of telling a child they have to eat all of their food "or else". you let them choose to eat a reasonable amount and then get their dessert or choose not to eat their vegetables (or whatever) and no dessert that day. It's choices and consequences, and the more we let them choose, the earlier they will learn that there is a direct relationship between their actions and consequences.

I taught kids this age group and I believe discipline go hand in hand with confidence. Children respond best to structure and routine. They will be lost and become unruly if you say one thing is not OK but then you change your mind. Having some rules and boundaries set early is an advantage.<br />
<br />
I would overlook occasional tantrum but when it is a routine for a child to always get what she or he wants than clearly there is something wrong.

I agree with both arguements to an extent. I may be young but I have seen my mother raise my brother and I remember how she raised me<br />
Too strict with me not strict enough with my brother<br />
I may have behaved but it was because I was scared. My brother doesn't behave because in his mind he doesn't have too. <br />
I would never ask my two year old to sit through a meal... That can take like half and hour! But I also wouldn't want them throwing things that they should have an IDEA that they shouldn't do that <br />
You just have to find the middle way that works best. <br />
When you do, call me :)

I actually teach in this "new thought" paradigm and it is incredibly difficult to maneuver in this new way of thinking. How do you empower kids without creating a little monster. I don't know. Do what you have to do with unconditional love and I think you arrive at the same place.

Your a great foster parent and hope those kids thankk yuhh in the future.

fine don't belive me doesn't mean it isn't true and if the author of thos story thinks you can teach sharing to a 2 year old she has met lss than i have and i've only met a handful

tulick-- you trust the expert on oprah rather than the living breathing woman who wrote this article? the "expert" on oprah is someone paid to make statements that make people feel good about themselves- the entire show is geared toward that. before you start passing judgements on others i suggest you base them off real experiences.

Wow, cc5439, if only every parent knew what you know!<br />
It's really not all complicated...

kids can learn various "levels" of sharing and sitting through a meal at different ages~as far as I am concerned, sharing is learned as early as a parent will teach it. Sitting through a meal is maybe just 10 minutes at 2, but the idea is to give them the expectation so that they learn to make choices and they learn consequences for those choices (both positive and negative). For example "Susie, you eat two chicken nuggets and 4 french fries and then you can go play" OR "Susie, if you are not going to sit down and eat your meal, we can take it home and you can eat it when you are ready"~~fairly simple, certainly a two year old can understand and there are no threats, just two choices to be made. Children are smarter than we give them credit for, and I firmly believe in natural consequences. Children learn from their actions from the moment they are born....and they learn to take control of and be responsible for their own actions and decisions as early as we will let them.<br />
<br />
Excellent post, robbo, and good luck tulick!! :0)

"if they spent half of the money they spend on social services to help the parents first then the children.teaching how to behave. help them first .if this does not work .then the kids must be taken away.but you must have procedures"<br />
<br />
Heres a thought; Children, they are not taken away by social services because of anything they have done! Their parents may be at a bad place in their lives, or may need to get help before they can care for their children. Children do not end up in social services because they misbehave or are bad. Thinking that this is the case is absolutely wrong and it saddens my heart! I work within the foster care system, and let me tell you, you have it completely backward...

If doing this helps them fit into society and does not break their spirit, then it isn't wrong. . . Children all develop and grow at different rates, so for one two year old they may be able to sit still through an entire meal, another may not be able to do that. This doesn't mean one child is better than the other however, they are just at different stages developmentally.

no but the expert on oprah says kids really can't sit through meals till age 4 and told a parent of a chold who was 18 months or so to wait on teaching them to share <br />
<br />
my best freind also has a 2 year old she did not flip out when said 2 smeared birthday cake from one end of himself to the other <br />
<br />
why- because its normal and how exactly do you expect a 2 year old to have any kind of table manners??? they are still learning to hold untisils

tulick, do you have kids?

the problem is the child is 2 a child cannot sit through a meal until the age of 4 <br />
<br />
i don't know what you do to your kids to make them so "well behaved" and i hate to speculate <br />
<br />
at two its time to start teaching sharing but to think a 2 year old has mastered the skill is insane <br />
<br />
you need more of a clue than the other parent as you have unrealistic expectations that will damage your kids in the long run

if they spent half of the money they spend on social services to help the parents first then the children.teaching how to behave. help them first .if this does not work .then the kids must be taken away.but you must have procedures

A wise jamaican woman told me that its not just the parents that bring a kid up, its an entire community. I thin kkids do need strict boundaries and i think those foster kids are lucky you can give them boundaries. Children feel safe when there are clear boundaries around them.<br />
but if a parent has lost control they need help. definatley NOT from social services which are the worst excuse for a caring society that could be imagined. they are there because society wants to pay people to do a job it cant be bothered to do itself.<br />
if a mum has a screaming kid, then other mothers should help.<br />
but now our society is so sick that the struggling mother would probably not understand the help.<br />
Nelson mandela was brought up close to his aunts' houses and when a kid responded better to one of the aunts better than his mum, he'd hang around there for a great part of the time.<br />
I hate social services and I think anyone who blames only the parents for badly behaved kids is probably a hypocrite.<br />
Help parents. there aren't any schools for them and given half a chance they'd probably try to do it right. <br />
i think supernanny is proof that things can be helped. but the pressure of official intervention is often worse than any 'help' they might thinkthey're providing.

The problem with our society as a whole is that kids have more say than grownups. Parents don't want to go through the effort of teaching their kids that there are consequences to their actions, and when their kids lands up in prison or rehab they can't understand what went wrong.