Questions About Improvements, Kanjoya, And Our EP Activity


I have some questions and would like to understand what is going on with improvements and with the use of activity generated by EP members. I'll use links and quotes to try to keep things factual.

The story may be long, but I think we deserve to know what is really going on here and how our writing, stories, and private messages are used by the site owners. I also want to know why we do not know --have not been informed--that our activity here is being used as a database for Crane Emotional Intelligence Platform.

Here goes...

http://www.thenewtraditionalblog.com/2013/04/25/aggregated-emotional-intelligence/

The above link gives answers and quotes from Armen as an overview, as well as quotes from Armen explaining the relationship between EP and Kanjoya. He refers to EP as " Our consumer platform, called Experience Project,".

http://betanews.com/2012/08/02/yammer-can-now-detect-employee-emotions/

A Quote from the above link: "Yammer, the social network and messaging platform designed to be used within companies, announced on Thursday that Kanjoya's Crane sentiment analytics dashboard now integrates with Yammer, letting managers watch their employees' morale, attitudes, and reactions to procedural changes based upon their Yammer posts.

Crane correlates emotional "profiles" with behavior on the social network, and presents employee sentiment in various ways. Instead of trending topics, Crane shows Yammer's "trending emotions," Instead of finding the most popular and influential people, Crane shows whose posts on Yammer have the biggest emotional impact. It is similar to many content analysis engines, but it is tuned specifically to isolate emotional reactions.

"The conversations in Yammer provide a wealth of insight into employee sentiment across all facets of the business," Armen Berjikly, founder and CEO of Kanjoya said in a statement on Thursday. "Kanjoya's Emotional Intelligence engine takes this data from Yammer and delivers detailed, actionable analytics, changing the way companies monitor internal sentiment from subjective gut-feel to data-driven."

Kanjoya integration is available immediately for all Yammer Enterprise customers, but it requires a Crane account. Yammer admins can sign up for a free 30-day trial Crane account to try out the analytics before subscribing to the service."

QUESTION: Is EPStaff using Crane as a means to change and improve Experience Project by using " "trending emotions," Instead of finding the most popular and influential people, Crane shows whose posts on Yammer have the biggest emotional impact. It is similar to many content analysis engines, but it is tuned specifically to isolate emotional reactions."? ...In other words, is EP only fixing things and retaining things that receive the biggest emotional impact? Do you ignore things that most users say they want if you don't feel the emotional impact is large enough to matter?

ANOTHER QUESTION. Are you using your Crane data to craft your comments on our stories that EPArsineh copies and pastes here and there on selected stories? Does your Crane data impact your decision on which stories to respond to?

http://device-manual.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-bit-of-emotional-intelligence-in.html

A quote from the above link: " A bit of emotional intelligence in the enterprise social networking: + Kanjoya Yammer

The new acquisition of the Microsoft Office, Yammer , one of the biggest players in CSR -corporate social networks - has just announced a partnership with Kanjoya , a company specializing in the analysis of feelings. The idea with this partnership is to provide, through the analysis of what a company's employees share their CSR (here, therefore, Yammer, and group discussions in the company)."

QUESTION: Does Kanjoya specialize in the analysis of feelings? Since EP is a part of Kanjoya, is it now functioning mostly to create a database? Are all decisions about EP made to further the analysis of feelings for the Crane application?


http://www.cmswire.com/cms/social-business/yammer-partners-with-kanjoya-to-gauge-employees-emotions-016799.php

A quote from the above link: "Armen Berjikly, chief executive officer and founder of Kanjoya, said in a statement that the Emotional Intelligence engine uses the Yammer data and “delivers detailed, actionable analytics, changing the way companies monitor internal sentiment from subjective gut-feel to data-driven.”

All the Tricks

The kind of Yammer data that is available for this kind of emotional analysis is about to increase. On Thursday, the company acknowledged reports that it is testing out a new feature — instant messaging private chats between individual users.

The emotional analysis engine is based on Berjikly’s earlier Experience Project, a social networking environment where members write stories about who they are, how they feel and what they’re doing. On its Web site, the company said that the engine is “aware of all the tricks we use to express ourselves online,” because it is “sensitive to human emotion, not just a simplified notion of positive/negative.”

The engine returns a probability distribution across emotions, such as its characterization of the following written expression as 56% annoyed, 18% disappointed, and 11% confused, “ugh someone just spilled icee all over me at Six Flags.”"

QUESTION ABOUT THE ABOVE QUOTE: Does this mean that the new chat feature you are promising is being developed for the purpose of being mined for data for Crane measurements? Also, are our private chats, private messages being used to gain data?

A Big Question I have now becomes--even though you may have started EP with the best of intentions, has it now become primarily a source of data for your product the Crane Emotion Measurement system? It this why you don't really care about dropping features we like and use and want? Why you don't care if the changes make EP more cluttered and harder to use? After all, it does create a huge amount of emotional data when you ignore us!

Also, does it seem ethical to you not to have told us, EP members who come here and share our deepest thoughts, secrets, fears and pain under the promise of caring and anonymity, that we were being used as a database for a tool you had developed to sell for profit, and that things you choose to do here might be done for the betterment and marketing of your Crane product and not our benefit as EP members?

datura datura
56-60, F
28 Responses Jun 22, 2013

Well inform me why don't you?! Smiles** I did not know this was why sso many things had changed here at EP. Very essential in things I need to know and Thank You again for always seeing that light Gentle Spirit..
Hugs n Bear Hugs, LW

Excellent post! Well done. Thank you.

love to be your friend

<p>Thank you for keeping us informed on the ongoing developments.And I hope that features that enhanced communication between members and made EP fun to use will be returned.I miss the card system and the old gestures where we had so much choice and did not have to pay 5 tokens a piece apart from the few free ones now that allow less ex<x>pression.</p>

I agree!

I don't know what to think ...

Hi datura, <br />
I think I understand it all pretty much now, Armen's responses were very helpful. It's such a shame you missed him ( thought you were in same time zone?) he was here for hours the other night, mostly on your story.<br />
<br />
I still feel a bit bruised because I seriously didn't have a clue our feelings and emotions were being used as the power for this kind of money making business. But am now getting over the emotional shock ( with the help of counsellors).<br />
<br />
I do think financially it is a very smart move and feel sure Mark could do something similar with info from his site. Nigel says there is no copyright in ideas so I have sent all the info from Charles.

Is Charles aware you are sharing that info? I'm not sure he'll be very pleased, but then with what Owen has said, perhaps Charles has no room to complain.

Greetings from Costa Rica Mansion. Wish you were here, Dat, b and OrangeTas . Love from duchessforthright and EPArmen haha ( I'm kidding Armen ok )
See, we still can have fun and laugh at ourselves. like the good old days ;)
I'm pleased to note the researchwork, responses and explanations have helped many to understand the changes on EP.
Pssst - who are Charles, Mark and Owen ? Hmmm ...;) -DF

So sorry datura, I mean to send that privately :(
(but the business has nothing to do Charles, he only advises legally)
See private message

I read the TOS again, b. It is self explanatory.

EP site is open to everyone who comes in to write, give advice/moral support and sometimes to troll. Anyone can read online our stories, check profiles, befriend us or cause mischief.

EPArmen's explanations have been summarised and endorsed (see earlier comments).

I'm sure in future he and his team will keep us informed of changes or improvements to the site before we experience them. An experience category should be created eg. 'I Am Going To Foul Up Again'.

LOL

Maybe not LOL

Perhaps, 'ideas and Future EP improvements' category where users can give input and vote?

We can only hope for the best, support him in his future endeavour and perhaps later (hopefully not) kiss our ar$e goodbye. Haha ( I'm kidding!) --DF

Data mining breaks this promise

from the TOS below

nformation security

We take appropriate security measures to protect against unauthorized access to or unauthorized alteration, disclosure or destruction of data. These include internal reviews of our data collection, storage and processing practices and security measures, as well as physical security measures to guard against unauthorized access to systems where we store personal data.

We restrict access to personal information to Experience Project employees, contractors and agents who need to know that information in order to operate, develop or improve our services.

LIARS

No dear Duchess - WE ARE BEING PROFILED.

That idea is part of the "Spook world" and you and I both know that, remembering our training and backgrounds. It has no place in Civvy street.

No, no and again, no.......

Another summary -

- TOS is well presented and clear. It is fair, reasonable and consistent with this industry, practice and expectation.
It does not allow postings to be used inappropriately . It is longer and more comprehensive than it was in the early days of EP, but its essence and controls are essentially unchanged.

EP
- The EP I knew in its early days was very simple. There were no gestures, gift sharing, greeting cards etc. just experiences to be posted and read.
Overtime, EP has added many features. Perhaps we became spoilt. Now that some of these bells and whistles have been rearranged and a few deleted, we hear cries to go back to simple times.
The addition has made the site more fun. I am sure rearranging them is done to make things easier not to spoil it. In this virtual world, we must also take some personal responsibility and safe keep things that are dear to us in our own archives.

Don't abandon our EP playground. Stay and enjoy it. As with so many aspects of life we get out of it what we put in. We cannot save the world but vigorous participation yields fulfilment and enjoyment --DF

Duchess, what do you mean that it does not allow inapprotriate postings?

You mean what do i mean by "it does not allow postings to be used inappropriately" instead of it does not allow inappropriate postings?
English is not my first language. But I think there is a difference there OrangeTas.

Which one did you mean?

Thank you I am very aware of the difference.

Way to discover Detura!

Wow!!! This sheds light on the topic in a pretty deep way.
I was wondering about this subject and had many questions of my own concerning it.

Now I see that it isn't as bad as it first appeared.

If nothing else it shows corporate America does actually care about their emotional impact on others.

I could be wrong but I feel good to think some one could get some use from me. :-)

EPArmen, to summarise I understand from your explanation:

- A year of changes has come to an end, the site has been improved and is easier to use, with improved capability for personal messaging.

- Our fears of personal messages being mined and shared are unfounded as this has not and never be allowed to happen.

- The rollout of recent changes was poorly handled with little or no explanation or warning; this will not be allowed to recur, future changes if any will be supported by well planned and informative roll outs.

(Pssst - I didn't receive my share allocation, please resend haha).

Correct, Duchess. Sorry for the frustrations. I do believe this was the last of the major changes, as nothing is more personal than the profile page. No private messages are mined, ever. And the rollout process, oh boy.... that could have been lots better. The patience is incredibly appreciated, and the feedback is awesome to hear because if it isn't given, we'll just think we're doing it right! We're not going to get it right always, and also one person's right is another's incredibly wrong, so we just have to be committed to improving overall. Thanks for your thoughts-- instead of shares, will you accept payment in love sent? :)

Duchess must be incredibly faster at processing and reflecting than me to condense all the questions and answers into a couple of paragraphs that fast. Or maybe she is a computer! ;-)

Unfortunately , She didn't read the links .

I'm not a computer Dat;) I was just summarising what EPArmen said so we all can understand. Took me a while to read this post, understanding the responses and replies. You did a great job in summarising the links for us too, Dat;) x

@OrangeTas I checked the links today:)) Computer jargon not my forte. I need to read more on it.
But from what I understood so far is that while the development of EP no doubt helped Kanjoya developed Crane, Crane is an independent and separate business which does not inpinch on or compromise the core functions of EP which we value as individual EP users.
At least that is what I'm led to believe after reading them.

@EPArmen - sure - love is good but cant buy my bling bling haha (I'm kidding). Send lots of love ok so I can spread your love around;) x

1 More Response

Hi Armen, Ep has of course helped people but the extent of the nasty stories and groups here now are seriously offensive to most and triggers to many who have suffered abuse.<br />
<br />
Rather than (or as well as) employing an army of engineers, why don't you employ and train more community staff to assist Arsineh with the 12 million people who use the site per month?

I understand, and would love to have an armada of Arsineh's. Sydni rounds out our community support team at this point. On a question of scale, the engineers can do a lot more programmatically than any of us can do alone, so there's also that. Like every site with user generated content (see Twitter, YouTube, Tumblr, etc.), we are in an eternal battle with abusers of the service-- we get smarter, they get smarter. Believe it or not, the community provides the greatest firepower for us, pointing out issues to both the community team, and in cases where they can't keep up, to the engineering team. I know it doesn't look like it at times, but there's a ton going on behind the scenes-- always more to do, however!

Hi Armen, I see Syndi is the community manger for kanjoya along with Arsineh. So they both work for Kanjoya and Ep?
I thought you said they were different staff?

Sydni and Arsineh are EP's community managers, only. Kanjoya is a company name.

I understand that Armen . I understand you own the social network Ep and also your business where you use Crane Emotional Intelligence Platform to transfer emotional understanding to businesses.

So the same staff work on both.

It seems obvious that they spend far more time on the business that uses Crane than responding to the people here who wait weeks , months, never in many cases for replies.

No. Sydni and Arsineh spend 100% of their time on EP, and by the way, they are amazing, working through nights, weekends, and vacations. That they don't get to everyone is not by any malintent. There's a lot to do, and they prioritize the best they can. It will never be enough, but it isn't for a lack of trying.

I don't understand why you don't employ more community support workers? Is it the cost?

If you are struggling with money I am sure there are students and interns who would love to help out at low cost.

Are all these comments on comments going to show?
People have been saying that they cannot read them after a couple.

Indeed! Please send those students/interns our way. In San Francisco, we don't run across such altruistic individuals.

And yes, I can see your comments. If you can't, that's a bug. After 2 comments on a comment, it says 'more comments' and clicking that will load them.

Comments don't seem to be showing in the recent group activity thing on the group page, right column?

I've also wondered many times and asked why Arsineh hides her activity? I would really like to be able to follow her comments. I suppose the answer will be that her comments don't foster people to people connection building.

Alas, the recent group activity feature was great, but the undevelopers took it away from us a long time ago.

6 More Responses

Good questions, good answers. Thanks to both of you for clearing it up. I'm good.

EP

I DO NOT TRUST YOU - NOT AFTER KANJOYA.

Have a good life.

You cannot redeem yourself with any amount of blabber.....

Hi D, thanks for your questions-- I appreciate you going to such lengths to thoughtfully ask about what's worrying you. Here are answers:

Question 1)In other words, is EP only fixing things and retaining things that receive the biggest emotional impact? Do you ignore things that most users say they want if you don't feel the emotional impact is large enough to matter?
---
No, actually. The recent changes (and I am sorry about the abruptness of them, rollout strategy left much to be desired...) were essentially the last major ones in a series that has been happening over the last year that is/was attempting to a) simplify the site (#1 feedback: "EP is confusing!"), and b) to make the ability to build person to person connections stronger. Part of our challenge is that our engineering team works in cycles of 3 weeks, so you'll see these big step changes, when really the work has been ongoing for a while. Up close, these changes probably don't make much sense, but the point was to help users connect with other users more simply, so you'll see the emphasis on messaging, for example. Some of these changes are also ones that we need to incorporate feedback on, they are not final. Again, I am a user on the site and feel the pain too, but I trust in the product vision of the team.

Question 2)
Are you using your Crane data to craft your comments on our stories that EPArsineh copies and pastes here and there on selected stories? Does your Crane data impact your decision on which stories to respond to?
---
No. The only place you might run across this technology is in making recommendations on what experiences are similar to other experiences (because they have similar emotional impacts). For example, "I am having a boy" and "I am about to start a family" are similar emotional experiences, but a simple keyword matching suggestion would never realize there is a link to them. Looking at the emotional profile of the two events, you would realize they are actually really similar, and you would see one group recommended as similar to the other. Nothing past that.

Question 3)
Does Kanjoya specialize in the analysis of feelings? Since EP is a part of Kanjoya, is it now functioning mostly to create a database? Are all decisions about EP made to further the analysis of feelings for the Crane application?
----
Kanjoya is interested in helping technology acknowledge our emotions, and work better with people. The thinking is, people use technology, humans are very emotional, and technology is tone-deaf to that emotion (think about Apple's SIRI and how useless it is-- you can yell at it, or you can cry to it, and it will respond exactly the same way-- that's something we'd eventually love to see get better!). EP is run by its own team (not the same people who work on Crane), and the product team is not building special features. Ultimately the point is that it's pointless to build features no one wants and no one uses, so the goal is (and always should be) to build features that make EP great.

Question 4)
Does this mean that the new chat feature you are promising is being developed for the purpose of being mined for data for Crane measurements? Also, are our private chats, private messages being used to gain data?
----
No, no, and no-- important question! The chat feature is being built to replace the now defunct-Meebo chat, that Google closed down unceremoniously after buying Meebo. We had to build it as nothing off the shelf met our needs for scale, speed, and safety (e.g., respecting EP user blocks). Crane has no relevance to chat, and absolutely no private messages, private conversation, etc. are analyzed for anything at all. As for whether chat is available to everyone or just EP supporters, know that EP's goal is to be a viable business on its own, so we are going to always have to explore finding ways to make it sustainable, which would include, as always, having premium features.

Question 5)
has it now become primarily a source of data for your product the Crane Emotion Measurement system? It this why you don't really care about dropping features we like and use and want? Why you don't care if the changes make EP more cluttered and harder to use?
---
No-- and if you don't believe me, realize that if it did, we would long ago have removed all ads, gotten rid of supporters, not charged for anything at all, and just hope lots more people used the site (ahem, Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, et al) because each one of those things actually costs us users. The features that were dropped (perhaps ironically?) have zero to do with anything but attempting to make EP more focused on what we believe EP is really good at-- connecting people to other people. Are they perfect... oh boy, no, they require lots of iteration and improvement. Do we disagree, even internally, about what's a good feature and what's not? Oh yes. That's not much solace, I know. But we are trying to make it better, sometimes small picture, sometimes big picture, sometimes screwing up, sometimes doing it right. But there is no hidden or malicious motive.

Question 6)
Also, does it seem ethical to you not to have told us, EP members who come here and share our deepest thoughts, secrets, fears and pain under the promise of caring and anonymity, that we were being used as a database for a tool you had developed to sell for profit, and that things you choose to do here might be done for the betterment and marketing of your Crane product and not our benefit as EP members?
---
I've answered the last question, hopefully-- EP is run to make EP a better place. Again, that is up for debate on how well we're doing it (!), but that's a fact.

As for the first question, I think it's important to understand what the technology actually is-- which is a lot more focused than it might appear in press releases that you've cited.

If a thousand people posted publicly (not private message, not gifts, not chats, etc.) that getting a puppy made them happy, a pattern might be set so that the next time someone says they got a puppy, you would think that's probably a good thing. And on the flip side, if a thousand people said out loud (again, not in personal communications) their dog was getting old, and it was a really sad situation, well then we'd have a pattern that a dog being old might be considered sad. So the patterns are taught by non personal-communications, done in large aggregate, not off a person. And to boot, we don't know anyone's real name, address, phone number, etc. as we forbid all that personally identifying information from being posted on EP, and always have, a stance that is the opposite of every other social network that is dying to grab your personal information, and something we're really proud of.

This is similar to seeing an ad for toothpaste when you search for 'toothache,' as Google has learned patterns that people with bad teeth need toothpase. We are interested in patterns that connect emotions and words. That's the full extent of what the Crane technology learns from EP. Non-personal postings, in aggregate (never singled out to a person, or two, or ten), that associate experiences or words with certain emotions.

Why would we think that's interesting? Because people communicate more digitally, not less, and technology is increasingly distant, cold, and tone-deaf when we need it to better understand how we feel. If it had a sense, even slightly, of how we feel from what we say, it could do all kinds of things better, from user interface improvements to what types of content you'd have recommended, and so on, and we help partners who want to build technologies that better understand people.

Our company has to innovate ways to be a viable business, and we think this is a really excellent way that helps further our mission on and off EP-- helping people have their voices heard. This is a super long post, and it is in deference to your super thoughtful questions. I certainly hope I've answered these concerns, and not just added a bunch of noise. Thanks for taking the time to care, to ask, to learn. I apologize it wasn't more clear, and I do apologize for the pain/frustration/aggravation of recent changes. It will get better.

This is crazy!!!!!!!!!

EP is data mining private convo's. Whether people or machines read it - IT IS AN INVASION OF PRIVACY AND THUS CAN NEVER MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE IRRESPECTIVE OF ALL THE bs -READ SPIN - THAT THESE PERPS SPEW OUT.

Let it go EP.

This is why FB is a failure. because uninvited perps can read my stuff.

No, as I (attempted?) to make clear, EP is *not* "data mining private convo's," nor has it ever, nor will it ever. And on your other point, among many other impacts, we know EP has helped saved thousands of lives. I think that *does* make the world a better place, so we'll keep on keeping on.

Hi Armen. Whew! This is a lot of info to process, reflect upon, and decipher.
I don't want to jump in and seem to be making more accusations, so I will take time to process and reflect.

However--one of the first questions that come to mind is about the removal of features because they don't add to the "ability to build person to person connections stronger". Surely things like private gifts, the library, and tributes help build connections.

They do. I wrote two of those features myself, so you're asking a very biased person ;) Making some things easier tends to make others harder, is what is going on there.

EPArmen, I hope you will return to this group once again. More than two years later, we are a great deal more distressed than at the time of this story.

3 More Responses

http://www.kanjoya.com/blog/kanjoya-eng/kanjoyas-first-hackathon/<br />
<br />
Hi Armen, it is very hard not to feel angry looking this article, seeing the staff laughing as they study our emotions and also read from a feed to our email. <br />
It is especially infuriating as so many of us are sending countless flags and messages about the most horrible stories and groups flourishing on Ep. Most of the stories remain and our messages ignored.<br />
<br />
How are the staff different , you are the head of both companies and Arsineh is also the community manager for Kanjoya.<br />
<br />
Neil Angela and Stan have also always worked for Ep. How then are they different staff?

That hackathon wasn't on EP, it was on desk.com, an email support company. The idea of prioritizing emails is nothing novel, every company you send customer service messages to does it, as otherwise the flood is unmanageable. Trying to see if incorporating emotion would make a positive difference was the hackathon hypothesis, as otherwise it prioritizes on things like length, profanity, etc. The experiment was interesting, but it was nothing more than a test for a day, and it never was worked on again.

BTW, they aren't laughing AT anyone-- it was a 12 hour hackathon and they're having a good time working together. I'm sensitive to concerns, but please don't add conspiracy where none exists.

The staff is bigger, and by extension, different. :)

Hi Armen, I did not explain very well but I think my point was meant to be that in the picture there are lots of staff. I have felt sorry for Arsineh and thought my concerns are unanswered because she must be inundated .
Why can't these staff help with answering concerns here and removing the really nasty stories and groups?

Ah, sorry I misunderstood! Community support is something that requires special training, trust and personality. The folks you see in that picture are wonderful, but they're not community folks-- they're engineers. Arsineh is a special lady, and her ability to listen, understand, and be responsible to all parties, often playing referee, is one in a billion. The engineers, on the other hand, are able to build programs that can detect and remove inappropriate content, a lot of which they have implemented and released over the last 6 weeks. It's not something obvious, and it's not perfect, but with 12 million people using the site a month, you can imagine it's getting heavy use and making some serious dents. We learn from its shortcomings and keep iterating it, as honestly, my mind is constantly blown at the lengths some people go to in order to evade our filtering system for inappropriate content.

I feel frightened O.o Damn you EP!

Hi datura, I hope Armen clears all this up :(

I hope I cleared it up too :P

Very intersting piece of detective work ... respect ... the rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper ! ! !

Hope the above cleared it up for you, at least a bit.

Is that why this site is called "The Experience Project"? :(

No. It's called the Experience Project because it's a site about experiences, and it's not defined by us, but by the community, so it's a project for all of us. I started it in 2006 as a support site for multiple sclerosis patients, and it grew from there.

Whew. Thanks for taking the time to clear this up EP Armen.

Datura, thank you so much for this post, your questions are of vital importance. I am trying to rate up your story, but can't *fumes* Will keep on trying.

Thank you datura, you have taken a lot of time and trouble to write all this very clearly and factually. <br />
It's a long read but I hope people will follow your links so they can see for themselves and understand why you are asking each question.<br />
And I sincerely hope Armen will respond and answer your questions.<br />
I have sent him the link.

He's too busy trying to find us a mansion in Costa Rica.

While busy with that mansion, I did reply above. Hope it helped some.

I've packed me Bermuda shorts , just say the word buddy and I'm there !

I'll bring the bucket and spades :)

LOL!

Party on dudes ! :D

3 More Responses

Well, I have no idea what EP's goal is, but i can say what the effect of all of it is on me...and basically I am really pulling away from EP.( which probably, for me, is a good thing) I have posted nothing of merit for awhile. I just am not interested in doing that, and most likely, will just quit logging on to EP, and then eventually delete. And i have a feeling that I am not alone in that sentiment.

That's too bad, but please do what's best for you. Sorry for doing anything to hasten that decision :(

Ok- I have read the above but I did not check the links though Dat- This post reflects a lot of thoughtful research. Thank you, Dat. I look forward to hearing from EP management.
To summarise, it seems we are the subject in an experiment we weren't consulted about. One purpose of which is to generate income for the parent company but perhaps another is to provide benefits to other groups from the experiences we have shared. I can understand the anxiety and frustrations as none of us likes to think we have been taken advantage of especially when Kanjoya dates from the earliest days of EP -- DF

Oops I think I accidentally flagged myself lol.

Probably best to check the links Duchess .

Another impressive bit of detective work Datura.

interesting findings -- and questions.