A Response To The Christian Domestic Disciplin Lifestyle

I would like to add my thoughts to this.
I am not here for an argument, fight or whatever, nor am I here to change minds that don't want to be changed.
To me CDD is in part BDSM, but with less extreems that BDSM holds. It brings to my mind of a husband (or wife) bringing order to a home life. Where one is the head of the family in every respect, from earning the income, to taking care of the household jobs that is needed to be done (think of the old black and white showes like Andy Grifith or I love Lucy ect.) A 1950s or earlier life style that gives a person a chance to be a submissive person to her/his domante, to care for their needs and the homes needs while the dom care's for his/her submissive's need's and the home's needs as well.
I really don't think that "Christian" has anything to do with it other than the two people involved are simply Christians and they pratice Domistic Discipline.
I don't have any personal experience in this mostly because I think what I want isn't what others want (they want the full range of BDSM whereas I just want the Discipline) however I have several friends that have a CDD relationship and both the husband and wife is very satisfied (I would know if they weren't.) I know when she has been spanked (mostly because like with a spanking when you were a child it hurts!) But he doesn't lord it over her. I know my friend well, if she doesn't have the grounding of discipline then she can get into trouble (emotionally) I would hate to see anything happen to her because she is unable to get the grounding that she needs. He hates spanking her, but he has seen what happens to her if he doesn't spank her. No she doesn't get spanked every day, nor every week, it ends up being once or twice a year. Do I think he has abused her, no, unless he allows her to become so depressed that she can't get out of bed in the morning.
So in conclusion I believe that domistic discipline wheather it is cdd or just dd isn't abuse if both parties are willing, and if the one being disciplined can call a stop to it if she/he feels it is out of control and the other will back off. I also don't believe it is abuse if it isn't done in anger, but there is a fine line. To outsiders it is abuse plain and simple, to those of us that are in it or wish we were in it, it is loving discipline that we need and crave. Please don't judge something that you can't fully understand, and no I don't want someone to try it or to even try to understand the psycology of it if it isn't something that you aren't full intreasted in, if you are intreasted in it in the since you want it deemed abuse talk to people first that pratice it, get to know them well, remember at first we are very closed to people on the outside about this because of the way people think but for those who have a great desire and want to learn after you earn our trust and you earn ours then you will be let in. As in everything else it takes patience.

Oh yeah and in those times submission was Necessary because of the dangers...they didn't have what we had...they were created equal in the beginning..eve taken from adams ribs not his feet or head...not below or above...side by side..in THESE DAYS we are getting back to paradise...where men and women are equal..I'm pretty sure quoting the bible isn't relative n e more...there are great morals..but u have to look at the times..the bible was written long ago so it was made for that time..i don't like to refer to the bible tho because it is many different stories by different people put in one book that in a time of peril and danger was made to protect and help ppl..a book about life pretty much..do we have a book like that today...not exactly but if u look around many ppl write books of stories that just what they are stories...

Adam didn't spank eve when she disobeyed...he ate the apple with her and GOD Didn't spank Adam he just kicked them to the curb...kind of like parents do to mooching teenagers, Abel wasn't spanked for murdering...in fact even though God kicked him to the curb he also put a protective mark so able couldn't be harmed and abel went on the build empires...Christian domestic discipline isn't Christian...it's made up by sexual deviant ppl who like to control or be controlled, who twist the bible and make up their own religion...to me religion isnt the way I go...Id rather be spiritual then belong to a cult..."a person is smart but people are dangerous."

Person meaning me is spiritual..people meaning religion can be dangerous...think for your freaking selves geesh

Dear Klt3shottie



I apologize for replying to your post so late. I certainly did not intend to ignore it. Thank you for taking the time to share your own thoughts and part of your story with your husband. Your response comes across balanced and honest. I appreciate that you admit your lifestyle is a personal choice or path to marital happiness. And I agree that DD is a “very unconventional way.”



When I wrote this story I did not look for a group, the group “I want to stop all abuse” was suggested by ep and I thought it appropriate. Wife spanking or beating probably is a form of abuse in your country and husbands who physically hurt their wives are tried and sentenced. I hope you agree that it is right. Where both parties consent to it, it is obviously different. I am personally not sure if it is still physical abuse. One difficulty is the fact, that men could say – “she wanted it” Actually men do rationalize their cruelty and disrespect and beating with such “excuses.” If a society would accept that lifestyle it would open the door for legalizing wife beating. But then, I know that no society or country will ever legalize the DD lifestyle. You can only live it behind closed doors. Just think about your husband lecturing you in a public park and then spanking you! It would cause a riot.



Spiritual abuse is a different matter. If you read literature about it, you will see that people realize that they were or are spiritually abused when much damage has already taken place. That is the difficulty with spiritual abuse. More than 1000 people committed suicide under the leadership of Jim Jones in 1978. They consented to follow him. Many were adults. Yes, this is an extreme example. But it shows: consent between adults does not necessarily mean that there is no abuse. I have no reason to doubt that you are happy with your husband and enjoy living with him. At the same time I imagine that others who see how you live together would question if your marriage is healthy. The vast majority of adults would say, spanking the wife is definitely not part of a healthy marriage.



At the end of my story I have cited a user who sees spiritual abuse in this lifestyle and who makes reference to a church discipline blog host. I repeat that post here again:



“I believe that this practice is another facet of spiritual abuse with great potential for continued psychological harm and potential physical harm and not consistent with healthy Christian behavior.



The Church Discipline blog host informed me that he purposed to direct others out of this behavior. I would encourage anyone who practices domestic discipline to read the recommended literature concerning spiritual abuse, as I believe that domestic discipline as a Christian practice is spiritually and psychologically damaging and rooted in shame. There is no condemnation for the believer in Christ, and loving Christians in a marital relationship should likewise have no need for condemnation, shame or punishment.”

http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2008/01/discussing-christian-domestic.html



Your personal story confirmed my opinion, that this lifestyle does not have its roots in the bible or biblical research, but elsewhere. The same is true for robbo. She discovered it by reading a book, you by reading an internet site. You both needed to encourage your husbands to learn about this.



It really makes me suspicious when I read how mature and wonderful and loving and hardworking and moral men with integrity etc. etc. your husbands are. Strangely robbo speaks the same. Maybe it is part of this lifestyle that all the husbands of TiH marriages are wonderful and perfect and great. Maybe you see them that way because you want to. I certainly do not know. But I am suspicious whenever people are portrayed only positive.

But if they were so wonderful and mature, I would expect that they do not spank you, lecture you, make you cry etc.



It works for you and the others. I won’t deny it. There are so many lifestyles today that work for people. But as a Christian this is not the only criteria. Is spanking according to God’s will? I believe not. You are free to see yourself as a spoiled woman. I do not. I think you and all the couples who practice this are led astray.



And being critical of something does not necessarily mean one is not open minded. You will have to live with the vast majority of your country being critical with this lifestyle and refusing to even give it a try to look at it. That does not mean that they are not open minded. Whoever chooses this lifestyle chooses to be part of a subculture that finds very little or no acceptance and tolerance.

Hi



If I may add my humble little.



Being able to quote holy scripture does not make a holy man. The last major divine event was the penticostal gathering where the spirit "touches" the apostles.



This tells me that God's spirit will inform and guide my understanding when I am under his grace.



The OT speaks to us when we were Jews and with the coming of Christ (Emmanuel) we revisit the teachings of the Law (Torah/Pentateuch), Prophets (and Kings and Songs/Psalms). We are informed of where we have twisted the old teachings in order to validate our lifestyles, in the NT.



If this discussion is about the woman's "place" in the marriage and in society, then the NT clearly celebrates them and elevates them from a role of obscurity (in the background) as it was mainly in the patriarchal society that existed (clear exception being queen Ester). The first revelation/admission that Jesus is the Christos/Emmanuel and fulfillment of OT Prophecy was to a woman (not to a Jewess, but to a Samarian).



The first Miracle was performed at the request of a woman - Mary - his mother at the wedding of Canaa.



St Paul, who was, as we believe, divinely inspired, talks to the place of a woman in marriage and society. Nowhere do I see evidence of any disrespect being promoted, celebrated, encouraged or authorised in the Christian Bible or guidelines (apostolic or catholic liturgy or canon).



Humbly



b

Dreammmer, A TiH Husband does not show hostility or contempt for women, rather a deep understanding for her needs. Ask any TiH woman if their husbands are over bearing and cruel or ask them if their husbands have broken their spirit and not one person will tell you that this is how it is. God did not create men and women equally, Eve was created from one of adams ribs so women will always be part of their husbands and answerable to their husbands. God clearly intended Men to rule over women as he created them physically and mentally stronger.

Even women who are not in this sort of relationship cry out for their men to regain the upper hand, that's because this is the way it is supposed to be. I agree that not every woman needs or wants to be spanked but nearly every one of us wish that our men would "be more of a man" and "stand up for themselves" TiH couples are strong men who do just that and they have loving and loyal wives who appreciate them for their strength, courage, love and protection. I really don't think God would have any problem with the odd (consential) spanking!

Dear tossalerego



You wrote, “Are you serious? Rules? Whose? We don't interpret the Bible as it is fully capable of interpreting itself IF we through away commentators who want us to see it as they do and instead learn the definitions by context by their entire usage in scripture. ”



Yes, I am serious about the widely accepted rules of bible interpretation. I cannot tell you the millions of names who study scripture by these rules of hermeneutics. Besides, there is no use in explaining this - you obviously have your own rules. In putting yourself above those accepted rules of bible interpretation you disqualify yourself to be taken serious, as I already alluded to. There is no such thing as a bible interpreting itself. The bible has to be read by people and understood by people.



You write, “Why do you have to use commentators? The bible says those who go to preachers will learn man's ways by rote! It is the blind leading the blind.”



I personally really appreciate good commentaries by men and women who have taken the time to study scripture and share the fruit of their studies. And Allen P. Ross is a very good commentator and a great help in studying the book of Genesis. Whether you like it or not, you stepped into the shoes of a commentator when you shared your own view of scripture here and everyone who reads it, is quite capable to see, what I think about your qualities in bible interpretation.

Throughout my life I have learned from other Christians, men and women. I am thankful for many wonderful and gifted preachers and teachers who have helped me love Gods word and understand it better.

If you do not want to learn from preachers and bible teachers, then it is in my opinion a very questionable attitude and I think an attitude that is likely to produce blindness.



Sorry, but in my eyes it is complete nonsense to claim, that people who want to learn from studied men and women are blind and being led by blind. I see no need to elaborate on that any more.



Yes, commentators want us to see scripture as they see it. There is nothing wrong with it. You do the same and so does your wife when she helps you understand scripture better. I use commentaries because I want to learn more and want to protect myself from being stupid and arrogant claiming that I alone have the right understanding to all and everyone else needs to learn from me.



You wrote, “This is too deep to get into in writing as it requires going way back into the ancient original beliefs”



I don’t see any need to go way back into some so called “ancient original belief.” My explanation why I believe husband and wife to be equal speaks for itself. Husband and wife were created equal and God never meant a husband to dominate his wife. Jesus Christ came to redeem us not only from the wages of sin, but also from a distorted and twisted understanding of who we are. That is true freedom and the end of all racism and hostility against or contempt for women.



There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28



You said, “By using commentators it has been shown your knowledge comes from others’ studies to prove their own doctrines and way of life, and thereby basing your beliefs upon someone’s else’s effort to stay in control, instead of your own endeavors.”



By using a commentator I only show that I am capable of reading commentaries and making use of the work of other capable people to learn for myself.



I think anyone is able to see by my post and my replies that I do not blindly follow someone or some false teaching.



Yes, in my opinion this so called Christian Domestic Lifestyle is false teaching. And in my opinion you are a false teacher.

Dear tossalterego, thank you for taking the time to further explain your understanding of the bible and the relationship between husband and wife.



I do not negate the fact that God disciplines people or punishes them. That is quite obvious.

However, the verses cited by you do not show that a Christian hopes to be punished, even though a Christian admits that whenever God does punish or discipline, it is for his or her good. Growth towards maturity does not necessarily need punishment and punishment is certainly not God’s first choice in helping us grow just as it is normally never the first choice of parents in raising their children and teaching them.



There is no biblical ground for a believer to hope, that God punishes them. There is ample ground for a believer to accept, that discipline and even punishment is at times God’s choice to help him grow and learn.



You wrote, “Now since rebuke means to verbally correct, in the verse in Rev., it is reasonable to assume that the discipline is chastisement by blows; for what would be the purpose of verbally chastising doubly?”



First, there is just no ground to use this text in Rev to justify the relationship of husband and wife. It is about Jesus Christ and His church.



Second, it is not reasonable to assume “that the discipline is chastisement by blows.” It is your personal and arbitrary choice to do so. The text is about Christ and the church and the rebuke and discipline is to be understood in the metaphorical or figurative sense.

The use of two different words for the same meaning is a known and accepted rhetorical device frequently used in the OT and also found in the NT. It is called parallelism. The discipline and rebuke mentioned in Rev 3:19 is commonly understood to be administered by words.

While Christ was on earth, did he ever discipline someone physically? Did He ever blow or hit someone or redden someone’s rear end? Do you see how ridiculous your argumentation is?! Well, to me it is ridiculous.



You write, “G3811, is the same referential note for the aforementioned verse in Hebrews, which you contested to mean physical chastisement, making it apparent that Hebrews 9 encompasses much more than father and son discipline/punishment”



Of course, the word discipline can mean physical chastisement in certain contexts. It can also mean something else.

I wrote “Hebr 12:9ff does not speak about spanking nor about any other form of physical chastisement. It speaks about the need for discipline towards maturity.”

Yes, the discipline of children by their fathers includes physical chastisement. There is no denial of that. I think that was quite normal at that time. But the term here is discipline and discipline is much more than physical chastisement. That is why I said, Hebr 12:9ff does not speak about spanking or about any other form of physical chastisement.



I do not see why you belief, this text encompasses much more than what is written there. The text is about the relationship between the discipline of fathers in regard to their children and the discipline of God towards believers. It is not about husbands and wives.



You wrote, “If you accept the bible as the inerrant word of the Creator then how can you possibly say that you are equal partners with your wife. Genesis or ( ראשית ), whichever you prefer, specifically says a woman was created to be a helper and that the man would rule over her. If you read Isaiah it also says things will be backward in the latter times and the +woman would rule over the man, (verse 3:12)+ The word rule in verse 12 is strong's H4910 means, "to rule, (have, make to have) dominion, governor, x indeed, reign, (bear, cause to, have) rule(-ing, r) have power."" So it sounds as if the man is to be doing these things.”



I believe that husband and wife are equal partners because this is the accepted common Christian understanding and in line with the bible.

Yes, the woman was created to be the helper of Adam. Does that deny her equality with Adam? Does that make her in any way inferior to Adam? If you understand the word to mean that, you are obliged to say that God is inferior to man. For the very same word is used to describe one important role of God: “We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield.” Ps 33:20 And: “But as for me, I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God.

You are my help and my deliverer; LORD, do not delay.” Ps 70:5 Many other verses describe God as help or helper. It is the same Hebrew word btw. So if you take the term serious, you need to admit that the wife was created to be in a role towards her husband similar to that of God towards his people. The wife is honoured with that role. As a helper she is in no way less important than her husband.



Gen 3:16 says, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”



I do not understand this verse as a command. It is a description of the consequences following the fall, the sin of Adam and Eve. If it were a command or rule whereby husband and wife are to live, then it would be repeated elsewhere in scripture and it would manifest itself in the lives of couples mentioned in the bible.

For example, Abram did not rule over his wife Sara. Sara even told her husband once what he had to do and God confirmed her words.



… she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.” The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. Gen 21:10-12



In this situation Abraham submitted to his wife, which is a good example for the words in Ephesians 5:21 “subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ.” With this situation I understand the verse in the NT “Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well...” 1 Peter 3:6 definitely not as an authorisation for a husband to dominate his wife. When you look at the way Abraham and Sara lived as a married couple, there is not even a hint at physical chastisement or spanking.



For me this text in Gen 3:16 “he will rule over you” does not negate the fact that God created them equal and wants them to live together as equal partners, even though the responsibility of each differs.



For those interested in a more thorough and helpful study of this important verse, I like to cite from a commentator:

“The Hebrew word "desire" has some of the same uses that the English word has. In this passage it is commonly explained to mean that the woman would be drawn to her husband, probably so explained on the basis of the usage in Song of Solomon. But the word also occurs in this context of Genesis with quite another meaning. According to its use in Genesis 4:7, "desire" probably should be interpreted to describe prompting to evil. The idea of the verse would then be that, because the woman prompted the man to sin in giving him something to eat, that is, taking the lead rather than maintaining a partnership, the man would have dominion over her. I would thus translate, "Your desire was to your husband, but he shall have the mastery over you." The punishment, then, would also be talionic for the woman. This view also finds support in verse 17 ("because you obeyed your wife").

Important to the understanding of this line is the meaning of "rule" (mäsal). This word cannot be weakened to mean leadership alone, as many expositors wish to do. It is a term that describes dominion, mas-

tery, lordship. It can have a rather harsh application. The significant point about this verse is that it is part of the punishment oracle for sin. To attempt to make it teach the Submission of the woman to her husband and the loving leadership of the husband to his wife completely misses the point. Those are qualities taught in the New Testament as part of the work of the Holy Spirit; this verse is part of the oracle for sin.

How would this oracle then apply in successive generations? It may be argued that the male domination in the history of the human race is a perpetual reminder of the fall, just as is the serpent's crawling on the ground. But if Eve is an archetype, that is, if she represents every woman as Adam represents every man, then the story portrays a characteristic of human nature—the woman at her worst would be a nemesis to the man, and the man at his worst would dominate the woman.

The Christian exposition of this passage will necessarily carry the ideas to the New Testament teachings on the same theme. For believers in Jesus Christ, life in the Spirit removes the sting of the curse, so that a much more harmonious and loving relationship is envisioned than that which is declared to be a result of evil in the human race.”

(Allen P. Ross, Creation and Blessing, 143f)



One more helpful quote from a poster by the name “organplayer”

“I would think that a simple reading of Ephesians 5:25-33 would settle the issue. Paul says that husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. I have no desire whatsoever to spank or otherwise abuse my own body; why would I do so to my wife? The idea is repulsive.”

(organplayer, http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/33335-christian-domestic-discipline-7.html)



As you see, we have very different approaches to interpret and work with Gods word. You remind me very much of Jehovas wittness, who are very fond and known for citing and using scripture out of context and quite arbitrary.



I think that you need to learn some more basic rules of biblical interpretation.

Hebr 12:9ff does not speak about spanking nor about any other form of physical chastisement. It speaks about the need for discipline towards maturity.



"…for a little while" it says concerning the discipline of the earthly father. By the way, this discipline never needed the consent of the child. It is the responsibility of parents to discipline their children, helping them learn to abide by rules and respect rules and people.

"For a little while" means that this discipline does last only a short time, there comes a time, when the discipline of the father or mother is no longer needed.



The discipline of God is a spiritual one and only takes place when Christians resist the Spirit of God and His revealed will.



"…later on it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it" - The verb trained is written in the perfect tense with the meaning, having reached that status and remaining in that status. Therefore this verse talks about reaching a level of maturity in spiritual life where this spiritual discipline is not needed any more.



I like to cite your own words here to point out how altogether different your lifestyle is from this biblical text:



"The need for emotional release seems to unite us all, we have different ways of achieving this, some of us need very hard correction and others not so much. The feeling of being totally surrendered to my husband makes me feel so close and sort of cleansed of every bad thing that has happened that week. When I wasn't spanked for a while I missed it and started to act up, not purposefully but my Husband noticed and we now do maintenance spankings so that doesn't happen."



A Christian has no need for any spiritual "maintenance spanking" nor does he act up in order to get disciplined.

A Christian just never misses discipline or longs for it. That is not natural.

If you see the need for this emotional release that comes with the spanking by your husband, why do you twist Gods word and abuse it to justify a lifestyle that is altogether non-christian? Please do not do that.



Contrary to your experience, the peace produced by the discipline and love of God in the life of a believer is a lasting peace, a peace that passes all understanding. It is an abiding fruit. Certainly not a peace that needs to be redone every week.



I understand that you feel better after being spanked. I understand that you feel closer to your husband and at peace with yourself.

In my understanding, Hebr 12:9f speaks about the wonderful lasting fruit that is called righteousness and peace.



In both situations described in Hebr 12:9f discipline is about the father - child relationship. It is not about husbands and wives. Using this text to justify the so called CDD is in my opinion an abuse of Gods word and illegitimate.

"Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it" That sums it up really. I don't always enjoy the spanking, it does hurt briefly but the feeling of emotional release, of being cleansed and at peace following when I've been spanked is where it's at.

If you choose this lifestyle, how would you say it is abuse? I understand that you deny that.

When I cited that entry, I did not want to say that it is my opinion. I am not into that lifestyle and being 47 years old, I have never met a couple who is, even though I think I have met really many people in my life. I cited that entry because someone who is more familiar with it came to that conclusion. Obviously no adult would freely choose a lifestyle that is abusive.



I am not offended by people who live this way. I am offended when they say it is Christian or based on biblical principles just so they can justify this lifestyle. That is per se an abuse of Gods word and I speak up here against this abuse. And I am quite suspicious of people who try to make the Bible say something it never did. And that is one reason among others why I have a hard time to trust you and your opinion.

Exactly! It is Not abuse if both parties condone it. A taken in Hand, loving domestic discipline, or Christian domestic discipline is being used in a household, both the husband And the wife are open and accepting of what these relationships entail and reap the benefits that go along with them.

Most of the women that i have come in contact with are the ones who started these relationships because they want to better their marriage or keep their marriage from falling apart. Yes it is a very unconventional way of doing these things, but everyone that I have talked to who practice these methods have wonderful, healthy, marriages and very strong bonds with their husbands. No, you don't have to practice LDD, CDD, or TIH to achieve the same results. Thats the beauty of individuality. Everyone chooses their own path to marital happiness.



Yes I am in a LDD, TIH relationship. I started it! Even though I married my soul mate and best friend, our marriage was falling apart. I wanted to fix it, make things right again. I got on line and came across a TIH website, started reading, and instantly knew this is what I needed in order to bring peace and harmony back to our lives.



My husband read the sight, looked at me and said is this what you want? I said yes. We talked about it for days. He did more research and finally agreed to give it a try. The results were instant and amazing. We have been practicing these methods for over two years and these two years or so have been like a very long second honeymoon to us and the respect we have for each other has grown tremendously. Please remember that I believe individuality and definitely realize these methods are for everyone. Great, strong marriages obviously do exist with out being TIH marriages.



It comes down to choices and consent. I chose this lifestyle. It works for us. All the wives involved in these relationships choose to be in them. Our husbands hardworking, good men with integrity and morals. That is why we trust them enough to take us in hand when necessary. We give our whole selves to these great men because they give the same in return. So I am asking you to please stop judging us so harshly. It is Not abuse when it is completely concsenual.(I'm sure I just repeated myself.) Our lifestyles are our own. Try being open minded enough to get more information about these types of relationships and give yourself a chance to get to know us before you make assumptions about us. If you can't see yourself doing that and are completely offended with our way of life, then respect us enough to realize this is our choice, out lives. I am not trying to convert you or anyone else to TIH relationships. I am merely trying to get you to form a well educated opinion based on real knowledge not assupmtions. We are far from abused. Trust me. We are probably the most spoiled women you will ever meet.