Sorry... Your "Proof" Doesn't Exist

Tower says those things 'prove' that god exists. Ridiculous. What religion do you suppose towerpainter is? Christian? Catholic? Mormon? Muslim? But tower just says "god" exists, he doesn't say why the god he chooses to believe in exists, and if tower's a Christian, what does he say to the billion Muslims that think he's full of it? They have a magic book to believe in, too. Oh, what a dilemma....

Creation, fulfilled prophecy, DNA, etc.... proves that god exists that is not where faith comes in. Faith comes in on whether one believes that the sacrifice on the cross is a propitiation of sin. No attempt to convert you just to add to your understanding of what i believe the paradigm of the question lay.

Couldn't agree with you more.. for all we know, the bible was a make believe story some guy wrote for his kid that just went on for a long time! Maybe there is a god, maybe there's not, hence the word Agnostic

I have faith in God, and have since I was a little child. But I have been a wittness to his love too. When my mom was dying, she heard angels singing to here. I have felt the holy spirit with me in times of trouble and the holy spirit spoke to my heart. faith is beliving, and if you believe you will feel.

soulReaper you just unknowingly helped confirm what this story was about. you have no PROOF that you were in a haunted place but you believe in it, you just have faith you were in a haunted place. :)

There are other ways to detect and measure things we cannot see, such as wind. No such luck with any God. His primary mission (apparently) is to go undetected, and for some reason he only revealed himself to a primitive and barbaric people that had no knowledge of science and expects everyone for all eternity to just have faith that these events occurred.



Call me Doubting Thomas. I'll happily believe in God if he were to give me any reason to. If everything that I see can be explained naturally, then why would I jump to a supernatural explanation?

V, God is real and it can be proved. You may not see him face to face..but just like we can know wind exists..when we see the effects of it..you will definitely get to know God...one fine day you will..and he even talks you know..and when you hear him..you know that its God...you'll never ask who it is..cos you'll know..since you are eager to know if he's real or not..and by the way...I You have taken a lot of effort searchin out theories and stuff...by the way..any time you think you need anything and when no one can help you...and there's no other way..remember Jesus loves you...he'll help you out.



- God's beloved!

"It is often said, mainly by the 'no-contests', that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

-- Richard Dawkins,

"I have heard an atheist defined as a man who had no invisible means of support."

-- John Buchan, 1st Baron Tweedsmuir, speaking to the Law Society of Upper Canada

The idea of a soul use to encompass many things, a person's unique personality, their consciousness, their mind (as opposed to the brain), all of the quirks of human psychology, as well as all of the superstitious notions that religions heaped on top of that such as an immortal spirit that is somewhere inside our physical shell. Human behavior used to be very mysterious, so it was easier to use this notion of a spirit or a soul to explain things.



We've come a long way since then. We now know (through neuroscience) that the brain runs the show and we can see what area of the brain does what. We're on the very edge of being able to explain everything about the phenomenon of consciousness. It turns out that only the superstitious notions of different religions (soul or spirit) are unaccounted for, but the only evidence that these things exist are because religions have convinced people to accept these things on faith. Ironically, we even understand why we have these inclinations to believe in Gods in the first place (see the vid on my blog: Why we believe in Gods).



Turns out that there's absolutely no (rational) reason to believe in an afterlife, just wishful thinking and fear.



As for ghosts and haunted places, I most certainly can tell you that they are not real. I'm always a bit surprised that religious people so easily accept the idea of ghosts and haunted places, for what is their explanation for why ghosts haunt the Earth? I thought we went to heaven or hell, I didn't know there was a door #3.



No, there are natural explanations for all 'supernatural' events, if you look hard enough. The problem is that most people don't, they latch on to the first supernatural explanation available.



Think of a magician. Are they really magic? No, of course not. But they are able to pull off tricks that people cannot explain. But we all know that they are just tricks, even if we cannot explain them.

I don't get it. What about the soul, the after life, ghosts and such. I tell you, I've been in some seriously haunted places. You can't tell me that **** not real!

I have a couple of friends who are Atheists. They both happen to be very well educated. One is a doctor of nuclear physics.



They are a couple of the finest people I know. Both very nice and almost spiritual, but they avoid religion like a plague.

SoulReaper, you are so correct in pointing out that I cannot prove there is no God. That, of course, isn't the point. There are zillions of things that I cannot prove don't exist. If I told you I believed there was an invisible green goblin standing on your desk that isn't detectable by any means, then you wouldn't be able to prove the non-existence of such a goblin. You can't prove the non-existence of undetectable beings, like pink unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters or Zeus or your favorite God.





The rational course of action is to disbelieve in undetectable beings.





Who said anything about giving up? I would never 'give up.' This life is the only one that we KNOW we have, so why give up?

I think what is offensive to most people is the high and mighty attitute that most Atheists project. It's like they walk around with a chip on their shoulder, waiting for a chance to cram their world view into the faces of anyone that dares to wish them a Merry Christmas.



Religious people can be good, well-meaning people, whether you agree with their views or not. I don't think it's right to make fun of them, or taunt them for their good intentions.



I don't see how you can prove there is no God. Yes, I understand, maybe even more so, but no? Is it just that Atheists have been lied to and dissapointed, to the point of giving up? I don't see that as God's fault but mankinds.

It's a euphemism for wishing people would keep their faith to themselves instead of preaching and proselytizing.



What constitutes offensive is relative. I don't think anything here is offensive compared to the filth that is posted on "I am Pro-choice" threads by bible thumpers. Calling people baby killers and telling them they'll fry in hell for eternity is what I would consider offensive. But to religious folks, anyone criticizing their fellow believers is deemed offensive.



What do you mean by "statistics are very easy to come by"? Please elaborate, for I find that statement puzzling.



If you round up a thousand people that oppose stem cell research and ask them why, what you will find is ignorance of what stem cell research is and a bunch of religiously motivated rhetoric. It is in this way that religion denies science. There aren't any rational reasons to oppose embryonic stem cell research, especially when people seem to be ok with fertility clinics routinely discarding embryos all the time. Why is it ok to throw them away but not ok to use them to cure people of diseases?



Like I said, no rational reason to oppose it.

Oh, what a world it would be if your Christian brothers could keep their Bibles in their pants like you do. Alas, that is not even close to being the case.



Nothing I said in my story is demeaning, it is fact. Like I said in my story, religious people can believe in whatever the hell they like, that's their right just as it is mine. But I see nothing wrong with pointing out that it isn't because of EVIDENCE that believers believe. They believe for a variety of reasons, but it isn't because of evidence. If there were evidence, then there wouldn't be so many competing religions, and everyone would be believers. If there were credible evidence, then faith wouldn't be a virtue and a requirement.



Instead what we have is a peculiar situation where 1/6 of the planet believes in one book's outrageous claims, while a different 1/6 denies that book and believes in their own magic book. How can a billion Christians be wrong? Well, just ask a Muslim, and vice versa.



Science has much to do with life. And it seems to be religion's role to deny it when it comes to things such as stem cell research. I admit I'm no biblical scholar, but I do consider myself to have a very good working knowledge of different religions. Don't think I've ever come across the passage which says to oppose stem cell research, though. It must have been in the book of Matthew, I never got around to reading that one.

I contend that we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours



This quote is handy when confronted by fundies.

I have two things to share. One is that I have been reading Left Hand of Darkness. There is this quote in it about how there would be no religion if god was proven to exist or if god was proven to not exist. I am still thinking about it, but found it interesting. The only reason religion and worship is something that humans cling to is because death is a complete unknown. None of us remember our life before birth and none of us have died and come back. I obviously believe there is nothing because I do appreciate science. Anyway, I liked the quote.

The other issue is my favorite science quote:

"The sciences do not try to explain, they hardly even try to interpret, they mainly make models. By a model is meant a mathematical construct which, with the addition of certain verbal interpretations, describes observed phenomena. The justification of such a mathematical construct is solely and precisely that it is expected to work. " John von Neumann

I don't think you fully appreciate what a "theory" represents in science. I think you are confusing "theory" with "hypothesis". The fact that scientists are constantly challenging their assumptions assures us that we will always be making progress. As technologies improve and more data is collected, sometimes theories are updated, revised, or completely eclipsed by better explanations. This isn't a knock on science, this is why science is better than the static beliefs that occupy religion. You could take a priest from the dark ages and plant him in a church today and he wouldn't be too out of place, as long as he stayed in the church. Their ideas and faith don't change or improve. This isn't a good thing.



In science theories are rare, and laws are even more rare. Newton's theory of gravity was widely accepted as law for centuries because it was always able to explain any act of gravitation, but in the 20th century Einstein was able to improve the theory in barely detectable ways. For almost all events, Newton's theory is what scientists still use, because it is accurate for everything except the most extreme examples of gravity, like black holes or the gravitational force near a star. In those instances alone Einstein's theory of relativity is shown to be slightly more accurate, but it is a very difficult theory to use. Much more difficult than the formulas discovered by Newton.



So who's right? Well, they both are. It's not practical to use Einstein's theory because it only improves on Newton's much more practical formulas in select extreme cases. So Newton's theories are still widely used and taught. Most cannot even understand Einstein's theories of relativity.

Hello Vendetta12,

Any attempt to prove,or disprove the existence of the entity referred to as "God" is futile untill those people who voice,or write the word "God" state what they understand this "God" is.Is it Eternal (without beginning and without ending),Infinite(without

limitations,can not be confined),Immortal(Not aware of birth or death),Incorporeal(Spirit),Omipotent(All Powerful,the Only POwer),Omnipresent(there is nowhere that it is not),Omnscient (AllKnowing,the fount of all knowledge)and more?If it is all the above,we can say,given our limited and finite understanding of the above,that humanly it would be impossible to prove,or refute the existence of this entity referred to as "God."

Moreover,any proof of this "God",would logically arise from a personal experience,and such an experience could not be articulated in words,because it would be beyond words.

PS:Let it be known that I do not have any affiliation with any organization,religious or otherwise,therefore,I am not enslaved by any dogma,doctine,or ideology,and it is my considered opinion that my comment is objective,not subjective.

I would rather not believe in something which has no proof and live a good life. Any god that would punish people for not believing with no evidence doesn't sound like a god worth worshiping.



Would it be better if I didn't know anything about religion and rejected it out of ignorance? I happen to know quite a bit about both Christianity and Islam.



You'd rather believe in "a" god, but I'm not sure how a religious person picks one out of all that have been invented. Were you indoctrinated when you were young? That's the most common way, people are just born into a Christian family and it's assumed that they are a Christian. To me that makes about as much sense as a child being born into a Republican family and so they are assumed to be a Republican.



Don't get you started? I'm afraid I'll have to. In science, a hypothesis is an educated guess. If it passes enough experiments, has predictive power, and there is enough supporting evidence, then one day it may become a theory. Are you trying to hint that a scientific explanation such as the theory of evolution is nothing more than a fancy guess? I certainly hope not.

More like, if you believe in god, and that particular god turns out to exist, then you've won the god lottery. Since there are countless gods that have equal 'proof' (ie none)



Pascal's wager doesn't work, because an omniscient being would know whether or not you actually believed or if you believed "just in case".

Why do you need proof? Because you don't believe. If you believe in god, and you are right, no biggy, but if you are wrong....you may go to hell. Believe what you want and how you want

Great post, V... Another good one, as usual. I am not atheist but an apathetic agnostic. I don't know either way and really I don't care. lol...but I guess I am more atheist. I also get discriminated against and attacked by xtiens who state they are not trying to force themselves on anyone, just to 'save my soul' or some BS. Don't get me started on that topic.

I used to be a brainwashed xtien until I actually questioned the 'good book' and found it so full of contradictions, errors, lies etc... As that hymn goes, "I once was blind, but now I see...." :) Anyone that studies that collection of desert scribblings can see with very little investigation that it is quite simply put...just a book. I have an (ex) so-called christian friend of mine that quit having anything to do with me just because I quit going to church. That's messed up. I also have a fanatical xtien Aunt who has basically written me out of her life also once I became a godless heathen. lol I say better off without people like that in my life. And you are right again, V. There are scientific medical facts to back up claims of NDE's. It is basically no more than your brain hallucinating with chemicals as it is dying. If it were proven, everyone would believe. No more real than a dream.

I don't want to get on an "Attack Shellfinder" bend here. I hope it is her experience that "SHE" does not proselytize. Being Atheists, we find ourselves persecuted all the time.





To think I just spent nearly the last 30 years hiding the fact that I'm an Atheist for fear of reprisal to my children is testament to how Atheism is viewed today. It all starts with a scenario like "V" described above. If people did know, I was labeled a "Witch" a "Devil Worshiper," it's wrong, just plain wrong. I raised my kids with the same morals and values as the self righteous did and they fit right in with their peers, they just didn't go to church unless they chose to. (And sometimes, they did) I'll never forget when my daughter was pressed to bring her parents to church next Wednesday night. She said "My mother is an Atheist and my Dad is an Agnostic." She was treated so badly she was never able to return there again. So, in essence, they lost a chance at "Saving" the soul of a 14 year old young lady. She was humiliated and hurt. Was it because I am an Atheist? No, it was because of the intolerance she experienced as a result of someone believing something different than someone else. It's WRONG!





I don't see us as tell you not to believe what you do. When you come here on a thread of one of us "Non Believers" and proseltize your beliefs, well, don't get hurt. We cannot prove to you there is not "God" and you can't prove to us that there is. C8Lorraine, I appreciate your experience and I respect your faith, we just choose to reject it here. That must have been quite an ordeal you went through. I read your story. I have a theory about your experience but You'd be insulted if I explained it so we'll just let it be. I'm glad you have something to bring you comfort.

Thanks,


Jojo

Some questions, lorraine:



You do understand how psychotic that sounds to those of us who have not died, right?



Did you believe claims about NDE's before you had one?



You do know that there are scientific explanations for what happens in NDE's, right?

I do have Faith and a bit more......I had a death experience and travelled to the other side.....long before I joined any church

I believe no one here on this Earth is the "holder of the truth",just because they read a certain book or pray on certain days. People may believe things that are true for them but it does not mean others can have different beliefs. Self appointing ourselves as the chosen people or the only ones who know the way, truth and light has been the source of endless wars , bloodshed, intolerance and many, many unnecessary tears .

I can't tell you how many times I've been confronted with that awkward conversation when I make a new acquaintance. They're like "so what church do you guys go to?"



(pardon me while I gag at the automatic assumption that I go to church in the first place)



And I'm forced to give them cryptic answers about how we don't belong to any church... which of course leads them to talk about how great the chuch is that they attend...



As bad as this pseudo-conversation is (I just had this exact convo the other day with a pretty cool guy that I play basketball with) it really beats saying you're an atheist. Although it is kinda comical to see people take an unconscious step back when they hear you say that, as if that means I'm a cannibal or something.

Exactly, Ven. We are the minority, by a large margin. The number of people that think the godless are incapable of having morals/ethics--I had one Xtian try to explain to me that there was some difference between the two--that without God one can have ethics, but not morals. I don't think there is a difference in the two. The word "moral" is not defined by following Christian belief systems.