A Message On Rape...

Are you saying men are as stupid as a shark?
Your analogy implies men have as little control over themselves as an animal.
...I think men are human beings, have a will, and are as capable of controlling themselves as I am.
They choose not to control themselves in part because the culture around them tells them it's excusable not to control themselves.

I get so sick of people who think its OK to excuse bad behavior. I have known women who did not discipline their boys when they behaved inappropriately. When their boys would do bad, inappropriate things they would often just shrug and say things like "oh well, boys will be boys". I would try to get them to take action and stop their sons from doing the things they did. I would explain that letting them get away with the things they did would result in them growing up thinking that it was acceptable for them to act like jerks, and sure enough they did. They would do inappropriate, unacceptable things and rather than accepting they shouldn't have done it, and apologizing and agreeing to never do it again, they would throw out excuses along the lines of what Bart has written. They would excuse their bad actions by claiming "we are men and this is how men naturally act". That is so absurd.

that's a good point...too bad the rapists don't just stick to them and leave the rest of us out of it...

i think the comment i replied to was deleted...it said something about ppl with rape fantasies wanting to be raped...i was saying the rapist should just stick to those girls then everyone would b happy!

Oh well it sounded like a pretty gud response 2 my comment.

You mean in your beliefs rapen has little to do with sexual attraction?
Because saying it as a fact would be a bit too much... I belief that rape can have a lot to do with sexual attraction.
Why little old ladies can be victims can be about power, but also an attraction to little old ladies (possible gerontophillia).
I usually say that rape is about "getting what someone wants when he (or she) can't have it consensually and/or for free", that really is sexual desire, not just a power thrill.

Sorry, I'm on your team too, but I keep pointing it out when people say it's about power, because that's harmful to victims (as my own rape wasn't about power, but about getting the sex he desired, despite my clear "no").

Hi Scarcollection,
I am very sorry to hear about your rape. I do understand what you are saying and I agree with you. As sexual deviants, rapists get off on the power and control and in taking what they can't have.

I think power and control either tend to be interpretated differently (as I would define it as: "being able to do whatever you want to do with her") or simple isn't as big a factor.
Most burglars don't break into a house for the power thrill either, they do it because they don't have that nice plasmascreen TV and want to have it.
Same with sex: they want to have sex with that woman, so they take what they want.

So that's why I hope you won't say "it has little to do with sexual attraction" anymore, because it really is a big factor when it comes to rape.
Saying it's all about power and control gets a lot of rapists off the hook, because they wouldn't fit the profile.

Scarcollection is right. Rape victims are overwhelmingly nubile. As for the grannies, well I read something bizarre. People who examine internet searches have found large numbers of searches for grandmother ****.

Yes, but most men ( and women) whom are attracted do NOT rape. Most people are incapable of rape.
Rape is an inexcusable crime. The victim is NEVER at fault.

I would need to study this subject extensively to be certain to what drives these criminals and I have little desire to do so as it frankly disturbs and disgusts me.
What I present is only my opinion.

There are different types of rape and therefore different motivations.

In general I think it dangerous to say Rape isn't about sex, as it often is, it's about using sex as weapon and way to rob someone of autonomy, I think however rapists don't use typical factors of attraction, as they aren't looking for sex partners they are looking for victims.

To a rapist a grandmother is 'sexually' attractive because she makes for a easy victim.

Rapists are cowardly opportunistic deviants and they ruin the relationships between men and women at large... Rape is a sexual weapon of mass destruction, rapists are sexual terrorists.

Rape is rarely about sexual attraction. Most male victims of rape outside of prison are attacked by heterosexual men

Really damsel? I find that very hard to believe. Are there any statistics from research on this?
Not to be 'that *****' (who asks for statistics only when she disagrees), but I want to believe you, since I can't. I'd like to be convinces by research. :-)

Maybe if we consider the sex industry for what it is (paid rape), I can totally believe that: most male prostitutes and gayporn actors are actually heterosexual.
That would crank up the numbers extremely, but there are almost no rape researchers that include the sex industry.
To them it's either legal or consensual when you're forced into sex for economical reasons.

Yes really. I'm not a collecter of statistics but I do voluntary work with rape victims and their stories, and those of my colleagues, and psychologists, bear it out. Actually it's so well documented that it's regarded as a fact in 'psychological circles' - it is jurors who are usually encouraged by the rapists' defence counsels to treat rape as a crime of lust rather than violence

I would never consider, not for for a micro second, raping 99% of women on the planet -- let alone the old, the infirm or the underage. But there are women who are SO unbelievably sexually desirable that the sole reason I don't rape them is the fear of being caught and going to jail. Morality has nothing to do with it. If there were no repercussions, I would in fact rape them. It has ZERO to do with power and all to do with sexual desire.

"But there are women who are SO unbelievably sexually desirable that the sole reason I don't rape them is the fear of being caught and going to jail. Morality has nothing to do with it. If there were no repercussions, I would in fact rape them. It has ZERO to do with power and all to do with sexual desire."

That comment says a lot about you too, because kind, caring, honorable, considerate men, who have integrity and who respect women don't feel that way. Morality and power has everything to do with it. Men may want to have sex with that kind of sexually desirable woman, and hope that they can find a way to get her to consent to doing so with them, but they would never consider "raping" her if there were no repercussions. Forcing someone to have sex with you who doesn't want to is cruel, uncaring, disrespectful, and immoral regardless of whether or not it has repercussions. And it does have to do with power, because you can always just choose to have sex with someone you know will agree to it, rather than forcing someone to do it who doesn't want to. That is always about power and not just sexual desirability.

A good person wouldn't find it fulfilling, because forced sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you and is resisting it, doesn't feel good for most people. Most people want sex with someone who will enjoy having sex with them and will partake in it willfully and enthusiastically rather than trying to fight you off and when they can't just lying there, not moving, and putting their mind in another place while it is happening which is what many people do while being raped. Good people would feel guilty about forcing someone to have sex with them under any circumstances, regardless of whether or not there were repercussions.

If you want to have sex on a regular basis with women you find SO unbelievably sexually desirable, without raping them and without repercussions, why don't you head on out to a legal brothel in Nevada.

How gross that there' so many likes on this comment. You're ******* disgusting. You have no respect for women and you don't deserve any yourself at all. Go rot somewhere, rapist.

All those likes are either a glitch (likely) or someone just spent a shitton of tokens to rate that comment up, because this story only has (as of this post) 7,082 views.

I agree. I have seen those huge amounts of likes on other reply comments on stories rarely viewed. I think it is a bug EP needs to fix.

I agree women don't bring it on themselves. Since rape is not endemic at nude beaches, I can't take seriously the idea that skimpy clothing causes it. (That doesn't mean skimpy clothing in public is good, however.) I agree that rapists "are the only ones to blame for their behavior." Don't you understand that the real bone of contention between feminists and MRAs on this is that far too many feminists want to blame men in general or normal male sexuality and write outrageous misandristic essays on "rape culture" borrowing liberally from the writings of extreme men-haters? It is the desire to respond to that unjust feminist demonization that stimulates things like Paul Elam's inept essay that you and others have made so much about, which Elam himself ended up admitting on the comment thread was a hasty production that stank?

"Don't you understand that the real bone of contention between feminists and MRAs on this is that far too many feminists want to blame men in general or normal male sexuality and write outrageous misandristic essays on "rape culture" borrowing liberally from the writings of extreme men-haters?"

No I don't understand that because I haven't seen it. Can you point me to where you have?

Virtually all of the feminists that I know realize that rapists (male or female) have psychological problems and that is what causes them to want to rape. The only exceptions to that that I believe exist are when groups of drunken, or drugged out men (frat boys at parties and things like that) become subject to the equivalent of group hysteria and will gang rape a vulnerable woman as a result, or when men who are lacking in conscience (somewhat sociopathic) will drug a woman and then rape her while she is unconscious. I think in those situations it is more about sex than anger, hatred, resentment, aggression, domination, power, and control which I believe are the primary purposes for most rape.

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Was-Raped/2861364

" I agree women don't bring it on themselves." and " I agree that rapists "are the only ones to blame for their behavior."  Con you deserve that to be noted and I should like to say that at least by me it has been. Your previous silence on this had lead me to view you as having a different opinion and I am pleasantly surprised !

I would love to see a link to Paul Elam admitting his essay stank.

I agree Dente. It is often about sex being a weapon or a means of taking over another person which I don't truly see as being about sex. It is about pain, power, control, dominance and an expression of anger, hatred, and vengeance.

Different rapists commit rape for different reasons, and any one rapist may rape for different reasons at different times. Thus, no one theory can explain all rapes. However, many cultural factors seem to contribute to rape.

Commonly held myths such as these contribute to date and marital rape:

A man must have sex to prove his masculinity;
When women say no to sex, they really mean yes, so men should ignore women's refusals;
If a woman engages in kissing or petting, she is obligated to engage in sexual intercourse;
What goes on between a husband and a wife is no one else's business; and
The man should be head of the household.
These are dangerous myths that can lead to rape.

Traditional gender roles prescribing female submission and male dominance are linked to rape. In Australia, Germany, and Japan, rates of violent sexual offenses were related to national levels of dominant masculinity. Studies in several countries have suggested that rigid gender roles and promotion of an ideology of male toughness are related to violence against women. This may very well be why since feminism came about in the US rape cases have actually decreased, and why in countries where patriarchy is still accepted the cases of rape have remained the same or increased.

Characteristics of the culture and gender role socialization, however, do not explain why most men do not rape, why some women rape men, or why rape occurs in gay and lesbian relationships in which both people have experienced similar gender role socialization. Individual differences are also important.

Some people hold beliefs justifying rape more strongly than others. Men who rape tend to believe more strongly in myths about rape, and they are more likely to engage in fantasies about coercive sex. Compared with other men, rapists drink more heavily, begin having sexual experiences earlier, and are more likely to have been physically or sexually abused as children. Some people are capable of healing from trauma they have experienced at the hands of someone else, while others are not and will sometimes engage in the same traumatic activity they were a victim of at one time.

"like Paul Elam's inept essay that you and others have made so much about, which Elam himself ended up admitting on the comment thread was a hasty production that stank"

If that is true why didn't he simply delete it?

Here is the entire comment cc is referring to on Paul Elam's rape post:

"Well, it seems this one is going to be a learning experience for me. And as much as I hate to toss out an excuse for something I have written, that is what I am compelled to do here.

My problem here was that I half assed a very important subject in order to put something up intended to spark some discussion, without digging a hole in my vacation time.

What I ended up with stinks. That will teach me.

I stand behind the basic ideas in this piece, but not the fast food way I approached writing it."

Contrary to what you want people to believe based on your comment above cc, he only admitted it was a hasty production that stank based on the way he wrote it, and not based on the ridiculous ideas he put forth. He clearly stands behind those vicious misogynistic ideas contained in his post, and trying to believe that he didn't shows an unwillingness to see things for what they actually are. He added the following addendum to the post:

"[addendum] I have noted the objections of some MRA’s here to the perspective expressed in this article about the etiology of rape. After careful consideration, I reject those concerns. I am not painting men as incapable of controlling their sexual impulses, but simply acknowledging that there is a tiny fraction of men who, for whatever reason, won’t. And I am suggesting that if women are concerned about their safety from a crime like rape, a common sense acceptance of that and choices consistent with that knowledge are in order. I may not have said it as delicately as some would prefer, but the message was clear nonetheless."

A person going by the ID Jonathen wrote the following comment on Elam's outlandish rape post:

"You guys make it sound like women are a different species.

Could the language used in this article be any more dehumanizing? (thats a rhetorical question, I’m sure you could write far worse if you had a mind to)

I try to see each side of the argument, and I have met horrible women, and horrible men. In all honesty I’ve met far more horrible men, but in no way do I think that means all men are evil.

If you’ve met some girls who gave you a hard on and then left you in the dust, thats a shame, but to assume the majority of rape are the womens fault is……willfully ignorant.

On a side note, do you all have healthy relationships with mothers, sisters?"

I couldn't agree with him more. Following is Elam's response which just further verifies what I wrote above:

"@ Jonathen

My guess is that you won’t be able to make real sense of your post, and likely won’t even try, but I have to ask, just what do you mean by dehumanizing language?

And I would really like you to think about that before you answer because it is clear you didn’t think very long before your comment.

The women I am referring to in this post are dehumanizing themselves, or perhaps they are simply conducting themselves at their most humanly opportunistic worst. Either way, I will eat my hat if my description of them is unfair."

There are no more comments from Jonathen which makes me think Elam may have kicked him off the site which seems to be something he regularly does to anybody who challenges him or points out that what he has written is bad. Another member, who often degrades women, actually wrote the following comment which I actually agree with in relation to what he has written about the article and rapists:

"I think this article focuses on stereotypes, just like the feminists focus on stereotypes. A rapist is a sociopath who has absolutely no empathy for their victim, they see them as an object only. I don’t think rapists are overly picky about selecting scantily dressed sexy women. Rapists are primarily concerned about opportunity, not how he/she’s dressed."

There are many other comments on that post which are made by men who are clearly misogynistic and have serious issues with, and misunderstandings about, women and only choose to see us in a bad way.

I wish MRAs would recognize how badly Elam and his misogynistic minions make MRAs look. They are not gaining much support from rational, reasonable, fair minded people who will actually make a positive difference for the treatment of men. People like that are shaking their heads and walking away and hoping that AVFM will not completely kibosh activism that could help good men that are being treated unfairly.

If anyone wants to read MRA Paul Elam's ridiculous and obnoxious post concerning rape here is the link: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/challenging-the-etiology-of-rape/

That's right, and is exactly why I wanted to post what Elam actually wrote.

I wonder of this is ostensibly the same 'it stank admission' cony said it was...because well it doesn't seem to be at all like Cony framed it to be.

"Rapists are primarily concerned about opportunity, not how he/she’s dressed."
Yes.

@ CC - No. Feminists want to blame rapists for rape. We know perfectly well that most men are perfectly peaceable, decent people. What we don't like is blaming the victim. There is also a large number of women who relish the situation as an excuse for ****-shaming. Rape should be taken seriously and condemned - including victims who are guys serving time in prison. It shouldn't be shrugged off as an added part of the punishment

Perfect.

Excellent response, thank you! As a woman, I expect a relative amount of safety as far as rape is concerned but I'm not stupid enough to be passed out at a frat party or go to a hotel with some strange guy and then say not when things get hot and heavy.

I think the point is like my grandma says, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

"If my health is fragile and I walk outside on a cold winter night in a light shirt and I catch pneumonia? "

Ah yes. Comparing the catching of a virus to a man deliberately raping a woman. Stellar parallel.

I only had one drink, I was amongst friends and I was in work clothes not dressed as a *****. I was raped what say you now? My fault?

Exactly goodlittlegirl... thank you for speaking up with a reality check. (I am so sorry you were hurt like that) I am curious as to the answer you will receive.

You know, men do get raped...mainly but not exclusively by other men.
If a guy passed out at a party and got gang-raped, if a guy walked down a side-street and got gang-raped...then they are responsible for the violation?

If the guy at the party was wearing tight jeans, was the sight of his bum just too much for the other fellows, so they shouldn't be blamed for tapping that sweet a$$?
If the guy in the alley was wearing shorts and flipflops, was he showing too much skin?

...And do you not get that this sort of advice, while well-meaning, means that women have to be constantly wary for their own safety in a way a male is not EVER expected to be?

Maybe we as women should advocate the right to carry firearms openly, so that we don't have to commit ourselves to living in fortified women's quarters to keep from getting violated.

"And do you not get that this sort of advice, while well-meaning, means that women have to be constantly wary for their own safety in a way a male is not EVER expected to be?"

Ohh, well said Hylier, thank you!

I am disappointed in a number of the comments on this thread. If you pass out at a frat party, it does not mean you deserve to get raped, or that the guys get a pass because of it.

I said "no" multiple times... but of course it was my fault for even being with a boy, right?
So if people really believe it's woman's responsibility to not get raped, I'd say: I guess we must ignore EVERY man in your environment in that case.
If your brother asks if you can pass the salt, say "I don't want to risk rape, ask dad", if an elderly gentleman asks you where the train station is, say "go away! don't rape me!", if you're celebrating your best friend her birthday and a guy is there, don't shake his hand, ignore him and say "don't touch me, I don't want to be raped".

If it's really the woman's fault, you're basicly advocating for women to ignore men alltogether, THAT is real rape prevention.
Because really, ANY man in ANY situation could potentially rape a woman, you never know who the rapists are, so assuming they all are is the safest thing to do.

@goodlittlegirl
I wouldn't say it's your fault, but I'd look at the situation from a pragmatic angle. I don't know the details of your case but I do know that in 99%+ of cases the victim knew the so-called rapist. Looking at your personal experience I would ask myself - how can my daughter, wife or sister keep themselves safe from such a thing ever happening to them? What can we learn from your experience? I wont certainly sit idle, blaming local authorities or tell my loved ones to depend on the now non-existent chivalric code - again thanks feminism! Based on the little you have said I'd tell them to only go out as much as possible with people you know and can trust, stay in public places when with relative strangers, and make sure you know what you are drinking and don't leave your glass unattended. I'm sure there's much more to learn from your experience, you can't tell me it was something entirely inevitable. We have choice in this society, we make choices everyday, sometimes we make a bad one, doesn't mean it is our fault but sometimes we are not prepared for it and are caught off guard. We should however take the opportunity to make the most of it and learn something from it so that others may be more prepared and don't have to go through the same thing as you. That is my logic. That is what I say.

I'm sorry for what happened to you.

@hylierandom
What's your point exactly? The logic of copulation is as such: woman is the attractive sex and wants to be the attractive sex, man is the attracted sex and wants to be the attracted sex in the context of purely heterosexuality; you are mature in age but still haven't got that. Then, since you refuse to pay heed to my advise, and you prefer to walk with your bums exposed in an attractive dress, and armed yourself to the neck with a firearm, then do so my friend. If it makes you feel safer please do so cause I'm running out of ideas here - I don't have any other solution for you.

@Scarcollection
What is rape? In most cases a man would be physically stronger than a woman. Biological fact. Man is the attracted sex (i.e. they are pulled) and woman is the attractive sex (i.e. they pull), assuming heterosexuality. Woman displays sign of fertility in their appearance, body language, and pheromone. Man gets physiological arousal in the mere presence of an attractive woman, especially if she's of fecund age and displaying signs of fertility and vitality in terms of secondary sexual development, in some cases even involuntary erection may ensure. Biological facts. Now if society is to function man has to permanently restrain himself until woman says 'yes' - that's how it goes, otherwise it's rape. Sociological fact. However sociological doesn't mean biological, therefore norms and law must be put in place to ensure the sociological is respected. This used to be the province of the chivalric code and the patriarchal family system. However after the demise of the former by feminists followed by the ongoing destruction of the family, the State apparatus is now the sole purveyor, making sure the sociological takes precedence over the biological.

The State power apparatus is very strong, but you can't rely blindly on it. It can't place a police officer at every corner of a quiet street, or square acre of lonely park so that a woman can walk in a skimpy provocative dress and I can walk exposing my expensive Ipad on my shoulder backpack, and expect the State to prevent her from getting raped and me from getting mugged! There are places where the State power becomes dim. When one approaches an unfamiliar neighbourhood, a ghetto, the rules change, the social norms change. Sometimes there's a prevalent norm for daytime and another for night time. These knowledge are called 'being streetwise'. Being streetwise is one thing. You must also be 'social-wise' in a society, the State can do so much to maintain the sociological over the primitive biological, but you must do your share also. Rape is not a coincidence. Your risk of getting rape when you are 50 years old is virtually zero. Rape is no coincidence, rape a sociological fact!

"If it's really the woman's fault, you're basicly advocating for women to ignore men alltogether, THAT is real rape prevention.
Because really, ANY man in ANY situation could potentially rape a woman, you never know who the rapists are, so assuming they all are is the safest thing to do."
I wish my grandma was here. Today I realise everyday how wise she was and people of her days were. Let me reiterate this: yes any man could potentially be a rapist. Think. All a woman has to do is say 'no' during congress and that's it - it's rape! All a man needs to do is utter a blunder e.g. instead of calling you Emma, he calls you Amy, and that's it, you don't want sex anymore and you want him to stop! On top of the fact that he can't always stop in the heat of the moment, sometimes he's drunk, or both he and the girl is drunk!?! Think. Rape is a crime based on hearsay. The man in most cases will be physically stronger than a woman and so it is difficult for the woman to stop him during congress! In my grandma's days women dealt with that in a very simple way. They didn't have dating, they had courtship. The man would have to get to know her and her entire family very well, and the two families would have to meet each others too, they are not left alone until her family has known him quite for some time and ultimately he would have to pledge loyalty to her and her future children in marriage before God and the entire community before my grandpa had access to her vagina!!! She knew him and his family on the tip of her fingers before she had intercourse with him! She knew his character and trusted him fully! This man couldn't just do her or rape her and walk out; what would everyone say? He would have had to leave the country! The cover of anonymity and drunkenness was simply not there! Her probability of getting rape by this man, I would say, was virtually zero! Compare this with modern relationship, dating and hookups systems where anonymity and unstability is everything - both 'partners' can literally just walk out of the relationship! You meet someone at a bar, you go home with him and then next day, or worse next week you cry 'rape, rape'!?! I'd say, instead of wasting the judiciary time and tax-payers' money you should consider yourself lucky to be still alive! 'Could have been worst! The State will do its job, provided it can be proven, but end of the day somebody got hurt apparently and that's the sad fact of the matter.

I don't know the exact details of your story, but I'm sorry for what happened to you. No one deserves to get raped; but rape is a reality, it happens. It happens to women, children and men too. I'm not blaming you or judging you, each case is different and deserves time on its own. Please read also my answer to goodlittlegirl.

@RedRubies
"I am disappointed in a number of the comments on this thread. If you pass out at a frat party, it does not mean you deserve to get raped, or that the guys get a pass because of it."
That is true.
It is also true that if you pass out in a mountain forest, it doesn't mean you deserve to be eaten by a hungry grizzly and her cups passing by, or that the bear gets to break this big taboo (i.e. eating prohibited flesh) because the deterrants that would normally be in place to discourage her instincts are absent.
No the bear will not dare because a female human being is a woman and a woman is above common sense and mind you, has a RIGHT to be!

@meneope...... your comparison isn't really worthy of a response. A man should NOT rape a woman under any circumstance. Ever. There is never a justification or excuse for a man to "just not be able to help himself" (hungry grizzlies notwithstanding...). Respectfully, if you can't understand this, there is little I can do to communicate it to you.

@ meneope: Men are not the same as bears... I think biology shouldn't be an excuse like that.
It's really just opposites in thinking and I dare to say: you could even be right.
The only problem is: we already tried the system you're advocating for and it wasn't very... fair or civilized.
You can compare it to communism: the idea is great, but we tried it and it failed, the same with a patriarchal time you describe, we're all glad we're slowely moving away from that, right?
I know everyone besides white, middle-class, heterosexual cis men in western society is glad with that a least.
So in my opinion, we should try to move away from that further: if patriarchy has ended and life is still totally unfair and aweful, I'm willing to admit defeat and kill myself.

About all the personal stuff: you can find my story through my profile, it's in the group "I was sexually abused" and the title is "I think it's time".
Don't say stupid stuff without knowing one's story... or just treat rape as for what it is (and stop discussing with people who actually know how being raped works).
Yes, it sucks, but if you really want to advocate for such a radical, unpopular and hurtful opinion, you better work with acurate info, like the details about what rape actually is.

Maybe you're one of the few sensible ones in the 'other team' that can tweak his opinion when he understand the issue better.
Because really: I prefer to advocate for "don't rape! find a different solution! don't see women as prey, but as allies: work with us... if you do, you don't have to hunt us for food, we can share our food (= metaphore for sex)" instead of "**** you! I want my ****** and I don't care you'll get damaged for life! you might have made a tiny mistake (at least in my opinion) and now you're going to pay for that with a life of weekly nightmares!".
Simply makes for more happy people and less damaged people. :-)

@RedRubies
I understand that. But do you understand that rape is a reality? What is your solution to prevent it from happening? Assuming you do want to prevent it from happening, given that your misogyny prevents you from teaching women the basic same common sense that all boys learn - namely that it is above all one's responsibility to protect oneself! You claim to fight for women but exactly explain to me how your philosophy of "victim blaming" will stop or decrease the probability of other women getting rape???
It is not my comment that is unworthy of a response. It is yours. From the very beginning you took a very defiant stance, expecting all women unanimously to side with you, and making it a personal affair especially against men, an attitude typical of certain strands of feminism and their obsession with seeing man and woman as opposing species, while pretending to preach equality all along. Stop making it a personal affair, and boiling up every time someone say something you don't agree with, especially if that someone happens to be a man. No man wants his sister, daughter or mother to get raped, he has feelings too. And stop acting surprise when a woman disagree with you on that. Wake up and grow up, man and woman are of the same species - they are human beings. You don't have to accept it but some people do. And when a human being gets raped, it is a human being being hurt. Stop making it a personal, sectarian thing and colouring it with your feminist hatred. Men get raped too. Open your eyes. Rape is a reality of life. Male rape is flagrant in prisons!!! At least a woman can cry, a man can't even do that! Stop thinking you are superior and deserve better treatment. You want equal treatment, then expect to defend yourself the way men are expected to defend themselves. Men too are expected to take every steps to ensure his protection, and I believe there's nothing wrong with teaching women the same thing! You don't agree with that, be my guest. If you have something better to offer, then please do so. But in the meanwhile this is the policy I preach to my love ones and fortunately they don't perceive me as their enemy as you do, just because I happen to be a male human being.

Ooookkayyyyyy....... I'm gonna wrap this up soon cuz I think rape apologizers have very little interaction with women other than online message boards and I'm not going to give much more of my time........Summary: Women should not have to live in fear of going to a party, walking outside at night or drinking alcohol because some man might not be able to stop himself from forcing his **** inside her......... Any MAN or WOMAN who would put the onus on a predators lack of self control onto the person raped, is proof positive that rape culture, dysfunction and lack of critical thinking is alive and well............PS: Yes, men are raped in prison... BY OTHER MEN. Jesus...

Michelle is sooooooo smart she is soooo not stupid because she doesnt get drunk and pass out and it is ok for that smart smart frat guy to take advantage....all her fault she was so stupid to do that....Claiming to be an intelligent woman and making blanket, ignorant statements like these....makes me ill...all of you people who want to place blame on a victim for the perpetrators choice to harm them is the most sickening and disturbing thing I have ever heard GET A GRIP PEOPLE .....JESUS CHRIST ARE WE ALL ******* INSANE????

Wow, I would never say to a rape victim that she should not have done whatever, even if she completely put herself in harm's way. I do not kick someone when they're already down. I am speaking of prevention. Surely you could agree that putting yourself in a vulnerable situation is unwise? Obviously, not every rape can be prevented but of the ones that could be avoided, I think would think anyone would agree that avoiding dangerous situations is important. That does not blame the victim, we are arguing the timeline of events here. I am diacussing the prevention of some rapes so we don't have a victim to be talking about!

@LelainaTroy - Your point is not being absorbed ;-) Nobody "puts themselves in harm's way" because NOBODY other than the rapist is responsible for his actions......... It's comments like this that make young girls and women terrified to report date rape..... god forbid anyone make a less than perfect judgement in their life one day......Do we quietly whisper, "Well, this rape didn't really count!"? Let me be clear: If a man is intent on raping someone, it is NOT going to matter if the woman had a drink, was waiting for a bus at night, or went to a party. Stop blaming the victims. THE RAPIST IS RESPONSIBLE!

Of course the rapist is responsible! Some of us here are talking about prevention where possible. Wouldn't that be preferrable?

I'm going to try one last time: If a man has the mindset of raping a woman, it doesn't matter what the woman DOES. No woman should have to spend her life hiding indoors and cowering because a monster wants to shove himself inside of her against her will...........Who decides what "adequate prevention" is? Perhaps you should speak with rape victims and inquire as to if they feel "they did enough to prevent it"

It also often has nothing to do with whether or not a woman is attractive or her fertility. Men have been known to sneak in through bedroom windows at night and try to find a woman to rape regardless of what she looks like. They have also been known to rape ugly women, nuns, prudish completely covered women, old women, and so on and so on, and some men also like to kill the women they have raped. It often has nothing to do with sex, attractiveness, or procreating, and everything to do with psychosis, power and control, hatred, resentment, vengeance and other psychological issues.

RedRubies, meneope said : "No one deserves to get raped". It is not fair to call him a "rape apologizer."

@conceptualclarity
THANK YOU! You made my day! Somebody actually listened to what I said! I didn't waste my time, thank you very much!

Meneope, all you said didn't completely fall on deaf ears. It seems you were trying to point out what I said but you said it way better. Some rapes absolutely can be prevented so why wouldn't anyone want that?

@conceptualclarity and whoever cares
What kills me with RedRubies (her male-hating attitudes aside), is the fact that she cannot answer the question -
(1) How to mitigate the risk of rape to those who haven't been raped yet?
(2) Not only she can't and will not provide any solution to the question but she also blocks any attempt from those who try to mitigate the risks of rape.
(3) She also vehemently rejects the fact that, like men, women should be expected to take every precaution for their personal safety and should be informed of potential exposure to dangerous situations.
(4) To make it worse, on top of that, she actively encourages women to be as reckless as possible because it doesn't matter! She claims I quote "If a man has the mindset of raping a woman, it doesn't matter what the woman DOES" anyway!

Perhaps not a misogynist but would it be so absurd to qualify this person a rape sympathizer?

@Scarcollection

Well honey there's no pleasing you, you celebrate the fall of patriarchy, the family and the demise of the chivalric code, but you are still unhappy about the result. You want everything to your fancy, but sadly that's impossible. "suffering exists in this world" - 1st Noble Truth, Buddhism. What you want is a 'Utopia'.

"
" Don't say stupid stuff without knowing one's story... or just treat rape as for what it is (and stop discussing with people who actually know how being raped works).
Yes, it sucks, but if you really want to advocate for such a radical, unpopular and hurtful opinion, you better work with acurate info, like the details about what rape actually is. "

Madame I admitted that "each case is different and deserves time on its own" and I also asked you to read my answer to 'goodlittlegirl' because it's tedious to type the same thing over and over again. Had you read it you would have known that I explained to her how there was something valuable to learn from each person's experience that could be of help to others - more precisely to women that haven't been raped! I'm not and have never claimed to be a therapist. I appologise if discussing with me is causing you pain. I suggest we stop this if you are still in a fragile state, cause you are not gonna get therapeutic comfort from me - I'm not qualified for this! I CANNOT HELP EASE YOUR PAIN. I don't know if anyone can but I CAN'T! I cannot help you - the wrong is done already! I'm not a radical Madame. I can't help you but we can help people who haven't been raped yet and who put themselves at risk consciously or unconsciously, and that's all I'm trying to do, nothing more.
And also if we are going to have this discussion and you are going to rufute me please, at least, don't just say I used inacurate info, quote what info was inacurate so that I can relate to it and know what you are talking about.

"
" Maybe you're one of the few sensible ones in the 'other team' that can tweak his opinion when he understand the issue better.
Because really: I prefer to advocate for "don't rape! find a different solution! don't see women as prey, but as allies: work with us... if you do, you don't have to hunt us for food, we can share our food (= metaphore for sex)" instead of "**** you! I want my ****** and I don't care you'll get damaged for life! you might have made a tiny mistake (at least in my opinion) and now you're going to pay for that with a life of weekly nightmares! ".

Honey, I'm not the one who RAPED you! I felt I should remind you that.
A couple years ago, here in the UK there were a number of young women getting raped, sometimes killed, after they went home from a night out, clubbing. The police worked out the common denominator and modus operandi of these cases. This is what we, sociologists and criminologists do, we question, go through their stories and find what we need to catch the culprit but also as a contingency plan to deal with future cases of this kind. To mitigate the risks, a massive campaign was launched with posters on every bus stops with mottos such as "getting into an 'unlicenced' cab is like getting into a 'strangers' car! Think!". Apparently the girls in questions, after being wasted on a night out were getting into random pseudo-mini-cab! After this extensive campaign, (some of the posters can still be found today, which mean it is still ongoing) sexual and violent crimes on women through this method decreased threefold (in London at least)! That is not radical honey, that is how professionals work! That's how Sociologists and criminologists do it while Feminists bark their endless criticisms and idealistic nonsense!
You want to do it your way. Fine, do it your way. Go ahead sensitize men about being more sensible. Go ahead tell them they need to get it up and down at the woman's command even if both parties are drunk. Go ahead tell women to continue to be careless, to continue to get drunk recklessly and get into just any cab on ad hoc basis; and let's hope nothing happens...
Fine have it your way.
You know why you feel hurt by what you called my "radical method"? It's because you have been raped and apparently you are still too sensitive to see things objectively and see how your experience can help others. I'm sorry but we are done here. I've made my point. You are too sensitive to continue this debate. If I got drunk and was raped by entering into an unlicenced taxi cab, wouldn't I have wished that someone had warned me not to do such a reckless thing? Who wants to get raped? But of course under your 'suicidal agenda' such an advice could never reach me because it would imply the rape came as a consequences of the victim own behaviour! You would even ask the question of why should women be wary of their safety? As if it is something abnormal to take care of oneself!?! No, instead of valuable advice, all I'd get instead is a pointless discourse about the drivers' sexual ethics and my rights to be reckless and irresponsible! You are taking this personally and extrapolating the logic of personal counselling and therapy outside its zone. Most of these defence mechanisms are no doubts valuables to you as a rape victim e.g. do not blame yourself, you don't have to hide yourself, it's not your fault etc etc, but outside of this realm it has no positive applications for people who haven't been raped yet. I don't expect you to get this. I told you, you are too sensitive to be objective here. So we are done here. You have your way, I have mine; let's agree to disagree.

@Michelle0001
Thank you! Thank you very much indeed!
lol I've seen you too having a go at trying to reason with them. I've given up, I'm too tired. The problem with these people I realised, is that a lot of them are actual rape victims and are extrapolating the logic of personal counselling and therapy outside its zone. Thus most of their arguments are actually defence mechanisms, invaluable to you as a rape victim e.g. do not blame yourself, you don't have to hide yourself, it's not your fault, its the rapist fault etc etc, but outside of this realm these arguments have little to no applications for those who haven't been raped yet.

Your welcome. I give up also.

I think you're right about "therapy outside its zone". The rest are toeing the party line of the teachings of feminism. It's too bad really as these well meaning but misguided folks theoretically put more women in danger by denying that there are things a person can do to avoid dangerous situations.

MIchelle I am glad that you feel you can designate which rapes can be prevented (and presumably how, in that case). I believe law enforcement would be most interested in your talent in this area. Perhaps you could post a list of which rapes could be prevented? You seem to have some insight that the most seasoned investigators and psychiatrists do not....

"I'm not stupid enough to be passed out at a frat party or go to a hotel with some strange guy and then say not when things get hot and heavy"

But I guess men are. Most men would never be afraid to drink too much and pass out at frat parties, or go to a hotel with some strange woman, and then back off when things get hot and heavy. This is why I want equality. I think women should not have to live in fear of things that men don't. Of course in terms of rape, assault, robbery, and other things men can do far more easily to women than they can do to men, or more easily than women can do to men, because most men are stronger than women and as a result it is much easier for them to overpower women, hoping someday men will stop doing that and women shouldn't be more fearful of those things than men are is probably a pipe dream.

@ Ruby: I second that wish for Tha List! Maybe if we have a "How not to get assaulted" guide, I can leave my knives at home one day.
Funny enough, when I'd get assaulted by a rapist and I defend myself with those, I can go to jail in this country and the guy walks free.
Worth the risk though.

I am sure Michelle will happily provide it; she would wish to share her special insight in this area. I especially hope it is given to the brave ladies on this thread who HAVE been raped through no fault of their own so they can "learn their lesson" and do "enough" to prevent it next time.

@ladyblue - "I'm not stupid enough to be passed out at a frat party or go to a hotel with some strange guy and then say not when things get hot and heavy"................ one of the most shocking and disappointing comments in this thread..... to imply that a woman can not say "no" to sex at a certain time or that a man can not be expected to stop himself blows my mind

Oh I'm preventing it alright... if I dare to function like a normal person, something that's still very hard for me.
And like I said: I'm always armed now and both willing and capable of using drastic force to defend my physical integrity.
If I have to cut off a guy's genitals to keep that weapon from penetrating me, I'm totally going to do that next time, rape: never again.

I'm sure the MRA psychotics will use this against me, but I don't care anymore.

Different rapists commit rape for different reasons, and any one rapist may rape for different reasons at different times (Muehlenhard, Danoff-Burg, and Powch 1996). Thus, no one theory can explain all rapes. However, many cultural factors seem to contribute to rape.

In a study by Burt 1991 the most Commonly held myths which contribute to date and marital rape are:
1. A man must have sex to prove his masculinity     

2. When women say no to sex, they really mean yes, so men should ignore women's refusals

3. If a woman engages in kissing or petting, she is obligated to engage in sexual intercourse

4. What goes on between a husband and a wife is no one else's business

5. The man should be head of the household.

"Studies in several countries have suggested that rigid gender roles and promotion of an ideology of male toughness are related to violence against women" see Heise et al. 1994 and Sanday 1981.

In the Neapolitan study from 1997 "Traditional gender roles prescribing female submission and male dominance are linked to rape. In Australia, Germany, and Japan, rates of violent sexual offenses were related to national levels of dominant masculinity."

I think we have to be honest in that characteristics of the culture and gender role socialization, do not explain why most men do not rape, why some women rape men, or why rape occurs in gay and lesbian relationships in which both people have experienced similar gender role socialization. Therefore, Individual differences are also important. Some people hold beliefs justifying rape more strongly than others. Men who rape tend to believe more strongly in myths about rape, and they are more likely to engage in fantasies about coercive sex (Drieschner and Lange 1999). Compared with other men, rapists drink more heavily, begin having sexual experiences earlier, and are more likely to have been physically or sexually abused as children (Berkowitz 1992; Ullman; Karabatsos; and Koss 1990).

In Holtlings critical review of 52 studies conducted over 15 years that the only consistent factor with being a victim of sexual abuse was having witnessed parental violence as a child  btw this  finding extended to the assailants as well.

A study by Pitmann & Thomas found no specific behavioral characteristics made certain women more susceptible to violence (including sexual assault)

The Abel 2001 study showed most reports indicate that on a global level women with lower socioeconomic status are more often victims of rape.

I gues since universally women living in poverty are more likely to be subject to rape, women should protect themselves by not being so stupid as be poor.

Date rape is a "non-domestic rape committed by someone who knows the victim." This constitutes the vast majority of reported rapes, 80-85% percent of all reported rapes.

College and University campuses are prime locations for date rape, A college survey conducted by the United States' National Victim Center reported that "one in four college women have been raped or experienced attempted rape." This report indicates that young women are at considerable risk of becoming a victim of date rape while in college.

I guess women should stop attending college as well.

57% of rapes occur on dates.
I guess women should not go on dates.

Over half of all rapes and sexual assaults take place in the victim’s home or within one mile of home: 40 percent occur in the home, 20 percent occur in a friend, relative, or neighbor’s home (while 1 in 12 occur in a parking garage.)

I guess women should be homeless and stay out of the homes of neighbours and relatives.

*Applauds* *dances* *toasts you* (but not too much lest I lead on some man who can't control himself ;-)

I hope you aren't in or near your house or around any men you know while your typing this.

No no... I am in my usual abode: with the moat, electrified fence and paid ninja (female) guards. In case I am still too tempting, I will put on my snuggie so my heaving busom is not detectable as I dare to breathe...

Well and good...but as a proper measure I must demand you do the above while remaining free of higher education and abstaining from poverty.

Perfectly reasonable. I shall ditch my classes and use the refund to purchase a magic wand that will ensure my protection from poverty.

"The logic of copulation is as such: woman is the attractive sex and wants to be the attractive sex, man is the attracted sex and wants to be the attracted sex in the context of purely heterosexuality"
In your world.
I usually come on to both my male and female sexual partners, or at the very least respond enthusiastically.
... I do not run around in impractical clothing, any pants that are too tight to kick someone in the head in are too tight. But if I chose to do so, it's not an excuse to rape me.
The point is, clothing and behavior is not an excuse to rape anybody.

...Considering the last time I was raped I was 8, and when I lost my virginity at six I can clearly remember my uncle yanking my corduroy pants off me, before choking me most of the way unconscious to keep me from screaming...I'm not exactly sure how I could have avoided being seductive.
...I'm 5'8" and carry myself like I'm a lot of trouble now.

Just a little tip: there are self defense classes for women where they teach you the most effective techniques while wearing 'inpractical clothing' (like heels, skirts or a purse around your shoulder).
Of course "you need to go to self defense classes if you want to prevent rape, because men can't control themselves" is stupid, but self defense is just a nice skill to have in a lot of situations, sometimes the courses are (partially) free too.
So if you think it's useful or fun, not only will it help you protect yourself from violent rape or burglary, it's also great for the zombie apocalypse or annoying boyfriends who try to tickle you (just joking! don't shoot me!).

;-)

@ladyblue:
"Most men would never be afraid to drink too much and pass out at frat parties, or go to a hotel with some strange woman, and then back off when things get hot and heavy....I think women should not have to live in fear of things that men don't." Exactly.
@ Meneope and Michelle001: I would never advise anyone to do something foolish. However, there's still a very strong cultural bias to excuse the man and blame the woman.
You two are talking damage control. We're talking changing attitudes so that men are much less likely to feel justified in raping. Two differing strategies.

Can you understand that?

@hylierandom: I agree with your comment to ladyblu. I don't think women should live in fear from men who don't. That would be a wonderful world but it is not reality at the moment. I wish it were.

I see what you are saying about men not feeling justified to rape but by merely suggesting educating women on as much prevention as possible, it doesn't negate this. Obviously, raping someone is not ok. I don't personally know a man who has done this so I can't know for sure but it seems to me that a rapist would not change their mind on raping a woman because someone told him not to. It is very clear in our society that rape is illegal and wrong. I doubt this is a secret to the majority of men who rape, they just don't care. Their needs fo the moment trumps their victim's right to not be raped in their minds or they wouldn't do it.

I don't see my argument as damage control, rather prevention when possible and yes, I know not all rapes can be avoided. Damage control would be what happens after the rape has occured. I'm not saying that anyone should discuss this with a rape victim, there would be no point and it would likely only serve to increase her distress. I mean educating women on some more obvious things.

Here is a small example of educating rather than victim blaming. I have a seventeen year old daughter. A couple of years ago, our extended family had a discussion about a cousin who was spending a lot of time partying while away at college. Later, my daughter asked me why people were concerned about her. I relayed that drinking that much and that often is not good for your physical or mental health. I also mentioned getting that wasted at parties (she posted continual facebook photos where she was obviously smashed) can be dangerous. My girl asked why and I told her that besides alcohol poisoning, it is too easy to either find yourself sleeping with people that you later regret or not being clear minded enough to avoid things like having your drink spiked with drugs. That led to a conversation about date rape drugs. She was not aware things like that existed so I feel that she is better prepared for the world out there with some basic knowledge about what some evil people do to others. Of course I think rape is wrong and perpetrators should be punished to the fullest extent of the law but educating young women on some common methods of rapists cannot be anything but good. I'm not suggesting women shave their heads, never wear revealing clothing and only go out during the day. That is ridiculous and not practical. I still hold to my feeling that women should be taught as much as possible to avoid this horrible and soul-stealing crime.

Thanks for your even tempered response. It is noted and appreciated.

hylierandom – bless you for what you have been though and for having the courage to talk about it even briefly. I can’t fathom what you have been through and I am so sorry.

Michelle your responses on this thread are fairly typical of people in society (not just you) who ultimately blame the victim for being raped. You stated “I don't think women should live in fear from men who don't” but that is exactly what you are proposing

You stated earlier in this thread that “I'm not stupid enough to be passed out at a frat party or go to a hotel with some strange guy and then say not when things get hot and heavy.”…………..I can’t think of a clearer example of blaming the victim. You were not “educating young women on some common methods of rapists” you were blaming the victim; this is ****-shaming.

If a girl goes to a party and makes out with a guy, she has EVERY RIGHT to stop from going further if she chooses. She has the right as a human being to say no, and to have the man respect that. Why would you choose to put the onus on ANYONE but the man who would choose not to heed her request?

My brother has a friend who had a date rape drug slipped in her drink from a bar. They think it may have even been the bartender, but she didn’t realize what had happened until she woke up. Fortunately, her friends got her home safely and they thought she was just sick. This was nothing she could have prevented… she bought a drink from a bar and drank it.

I am also surprised that you say your daughter is 17, volunteers at domestic violence shelters and didn’t know that date rape drugs existed?? I can’t quite comprehend how this would be so…

The whole rape culture (trivialization of rape, **** shaming and myths) is so incredibly damaging and it is disheartening to see a women buy into it at any given level.

I don't appreciate the implication (again) that my daughter's volunteer efforts were a lie. Your condescending attitude is ugly and not apreciated. She was 14 or 15 when we had the conversation recounted above, she was sixteen when she first worked reception for the business office (not the emergency shelter) so no, she had not heard of date rape drugs yet. When she worked reception, I was there with here every minute and no one discussed anything of the sort around either of us.

As a mother, it would be irresponsible of me to not teach her to keep herself out of harm's way if possible. Would you never tell your daughter about things like this lest you be considered to be blaming the victim? I should send my girl out into the world with no idea of what is out there? I think your attitude of keeping women in the dark as far as the dangers of rape to be dangerous to the potential victims out there.

Rapists should be vigorously prosecuted, victims helped to heal and young women at least given the information on rape and the methods of typical rapists.

RR wrote: "@ladyblue - "I'm not stupid enough to be passed out at a frat party or go to a hotel with some strange guy and then say not when things get hot and heavy"................ one of the most shocking and disappointing comments in this thread..... to imply that a woman can not say "no" to sex at a certain time or that a man can not be expected to stop himself blows my mind"

I agree, and its ridiculous, as is so much of what people write about how women should dress and act to avoid rape. I actually started to have sex with a man once and it was painful so I had to say "no" we can't go any further. He didn't go forward and rape me. He stopped, said he was sorry it worked out that way, and hugged me and kissed me and thanked me for the affection I had shown him. That is normal. A man who would continue to try to push it wouldn't be considered normal and would be considered a rapist a$$hole.

There was no implication, Michelle, except to express my surprise that someone volunteering at a shelter would not have heard of date rape drugs. You can hardly be critical or surprised of that observation. Additionally, I am not being condescending, I am replying to the exact points you brought up.

If “keeping my daughter in the dark” would mean never saying, “I'm not stupid enough to be passed out at a frat party or go to a hotel with some strange guy and then say not when things get hot and heavy.” then my answer is yes…. because I would never, ever say that to a girl. I believe women have the choice to say no and to have that choice respected… which is quite the opposite of your position given that statement.

"Rapists should be vigorously prosecuted, victims helped to heal and young women at least given the information on rape and the methods of typical rapists." <--- This!

"I'm not stupid enough to be passed out at a frat party or go to a hotel with some strange guy and then say not when things get hot and heavy." <--- Not This!

Maybe if Michelle reconsiders her second statement (mentioned in this post above) and embraces the first, we can prevent this reply-to-a-reply-to-a-reply to hit the 50 replies back? ;-)
Seriously ladies, my scroll-bar is getting almost too small to click on.

Of course there was that implication redrubies. I absolutely disagree with your opinions on this subject but have not sunk to that particular method of debate. I would never accuse any part of your story to be untue, how would I know since we don't know each other in real life and unless I was there, doubting your story would be extremely rude and condescending. It would be great if you would extend me the same courtesy.

Back to the issue at hand, if one is passed out drunk at a frat party, they can't very well say no can they? Would I consider it rape if something happened, of course! But that does not deny that it would have been more intelligent to not be in that position in the first place. That is the simplicity of what I'm trying to get across. Let's try this another way, you and your girlfriend are twenty and go to this infamous frat party. Your friend gets snockered drunk. You want to leave and find her passed out. Do you take her out of there so nothing bad can happen to her or do you leave her there because in your world, nothing bad should happen? I wished we lived in the world where this friend would not be vulnerable to attack but that is not the reality of it. She would be vulnerable and I would hope that you would protect her.

"It is very clear in our society that rape is illegal and wrong. I doubt this is a secret to the majority of men who rape, they just don't care. Their needs fo the moment trumps their victim's right to not be raped in their minds or they wouldn't do it."

But the problem is that a lot of idiot MRAs provide them with ample excuses and justifications. They promote the idea that most women who claim they were raped (particularly date rape, or rape by a man they know) is a false claim. They should realize that by promoting this false ideology they are causing some women who have been raped under those circumstances to fear contacting the authorities. They are also causing men who are rapists to feel they now have a method for avoiding being prosecuted or convicted which is more likely to work, and they are causing people who might be jurors to more heavily question the rape charges and have a basis for acquitting a guilty man. Just like the women who actually do make false rape charges, the men who promote the notion that false rape charges are the norm should be ashamed of themselves. They should just let the legal system do the work and butt the hell out.

@ladyblue - THANK YOU.... men are not mindless sex beasts who can't be expected to stop themselves; how sad it is to read that they should not be expected to show restraint or consideration. I think more highly of men than that.

RR wrote: "You were not “educating young women on some common methods of rapists” you were blaming the victim; this is ****-shaming."

I totally agree. In fact an obnoxious woman (or so they claim, but it may actually be a man) wrote a post on AVFM which claims that some women who get really drunk and sleep with a man they wouldn't have slept with if they were sober, wake up feel like ****** and *****, and to avoid feeling that way claim they were raped. That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. She also points out that men who do the same kind of thing completely accept the blame for doing a foolish thing. Then she/he writes: "So go ahead! Wear those fishnets and hoochie shorts. You look ******* hot! Play beer pong! ***** for that guy. Go ahead and **** him. Make all those decisions but understand they are your decisions. You don’t get to wake up the next day feeling like a ***** and ruin a man’s life because you were a ****." So are those men's ***** too? God damn I hate that double standard crap.

NO IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT I DON'T CARE IF YOU GET DRUNK AND ARE PASSED OUT AT A FRAT PARTY, ON THE STREET OR WHAT EVER. The only person responsible for rape is the person who is doing the raping.

Amen

@Michelle - In regards to the volunteering issue, I call 'em as I see 'em and legalities remain. I'll leave it at that unless you choose to revisit it.

You still are not understanding that it is not the fault of anyone but the person who would take advantage of a girl who might have had too much to drink. How about instead we teach our boys and men to NEVER take advantage of such a situation? The onus not on them to not rape in the first place.

I'm sorry that you still can't see it is in no way a woman's fault if she gets raped. Your words are exactly why women are afraid to report date rape....the judgement.... the disdain and blame are hardwired into certain segments of society and that needs to change.

@trudypitudy - YES...!

@ladyblue:

***************
"Then she/he writes: "So go ahead! Wear those fishnets and hoochie shorts. You look ******* hot! Play beer pong! ***** for that guy. Go ahead and **** him. Make all those decisions but understand they are your decisions. You don’t get to wake up the next day feeling like a ***** and ruin a man’s life because you were a ****."
**************
It makes me weep that any man or woman would support this drivel. My god we have so far to go.....

If people wanted to be good mothers they would be educating their daughters on how to be safe, not on how to "be less guilty".
If people cared about safety of their daughters, and of abused women, they wouldn't allow their minor daughter to break the law and put all the funding of an abuse shelter at risk by doing so. I think it would be better if this claim is/was just a lie, told without any real thought or knowledge about confidentiality laws or insurance terms.

@RedRubies
(Referring to the Frat party situation) "How about instead we teach our boys and men to NEVER take advantage of such a situation?"

Lol - trying to teach zonkies and binge drinkers social etiquettes!

Of course your daughter would have full licence and be expected to behave as licentious as alcohol permits to total strangers, but alcohol wont be an excuse for your 'boy' to misbehave under no circumstances! He, being a man simply doesn't have this privilege. Right? Even if he wakes up with a headach and hardly remembers what he did, he has no excuse because heterosexual rape claim is solely a woman's privilege! And because he's a man too!!! Right? Women shouldn't have to restrain themselves at all and under no circumstances! Man on the other hand should restrain his libido at all times and ESPECIALLY under the influence of alcohol, even when the woman flirts, make out with him at a frat party and start having sex with him and decides to take a break in the middle of it - restrain is not optional for man, its obligatory! Even if she grab his 'package' to tease him and decide to call it a day; he will call it a day too; mind you he's a man he has full control over himself even under the influence of alcohol whereas she's a woman she DOES NOT need to have any sort of control over herself ESPECIALLY under the influence of alcohol. Your well-groomed boy will grab her bums when she wants to and where she wants to and at a frequency according to her whims because, after all, it doesn't matter if both parties get drunk at a fraternity party, a woman is never responsible or accountable for her actions [especially under alcohol] whereas a man is always responsible and accountable for his actions [especially under alcohol] - for mind you rape claim is a woman's privilege after all! Hence even though under the influence of alcohol (or drugs) the man behave like a clown and is barely stumbling on his feet, your 'boy', being groomed by you, will still be able to get it up and down at the woman's mere command; and mind you, if she changes her mind 10 times under the influence of alcohol (and mind you she has entirely the right to do so!!!), I'm sure your boy wont fail to get his willy up and down 10 times at the woman's every whim, he's like a robot - he acts according to orders, and of course women being the operators of the robot normally give clear and explicit 'right-of-passage' orders such as: "Ok I grant you permission, you can penetrate me now!"! The mastery your beloved son would develop under your prodigious tutelage is by all standards outstanding! RedRubies, truly your comprehension of life is unfathomable and I'm sure you are or would be a prolific mother to your sons one day. Your knowledge and penetrative perception of the social is one of the most remarkable I'm come across as yet! You should publish a book about your methods to help mothers to 'educate their boys' so that they stop raising up rapists. Kudos!

I'd like to ask such a brilliant mind like you only one question. How would you, instead, envisage a society where all males are by default incarcerated permanently? We could extract their ***** and make them available in supermarket outlets along with self injecting syringe? It would be cost effective and no one needs to hide or restrain themselves no more. It would be a perfect society; and if a woman should get tired to dress provocatively in front of other females in this otherwise lesbian society, she would be allowed to walk in a jail cell and get drunk with the number of inmates of her choosing, and next day she could just walk out and have them all executed for rape should she so wish, after all males are expendable, only a few is truly needed to produce ***** for the whole population. Wouldn't that be the perfect society? ****-shaming in every sense of the term would become pointless, wouldn't it? There would be no victim to blame and no rapist to catch! What woman wouldn't dream of such a world indeed?

"Man on the other hand should restrain his libido at all times and ESPECIALLY under the influence of alcohol, even when the woman flirts, make out with him at a frat party and start having sex with him and decides to take a break in the middle of it - restrain is not optional for man, its obligatory!"

All men and boys with strong libidos who get drunk don't consider raping a woman who flirts, gropes, and exhibits herself to them. I honestly believe that only men who are potential rapists think this way because they want to excuse and justify the way they view things by believing all men are the same and think like them. They aren't. Just like a horny, drunk woman won't jump all over a horny drunk man who doesn't want to have sex with her, most men also won't do the same with a woman under those same circumstances. Most men aren't potential rapists regardless of the circumstances.

Self-defense training is a good idea, but the problem is that many rapists carry weapons, and in those situations being able to kick, hit, and run often won't do you much good.

Also, date rape is fairly common so doing the things talked about to protect yourself isn't going to do a girl who ends up going out with a date rapist any good. Its not likely that she will know he is a date rapist until she has been raped. So those of you who think women should take precautions to prevent rape should insist that your daughter never go out on a date, or insist that her father or brother go with her - GOOD LUCK on that one.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Listen-To-Avoiceformem-Radio/2779905

EXACTLY my thoughts. I should have read your comment before posting almost the same thing!

We need more voices telling people the truth. Even if they don't want to hear it.

We are my friend, we are speaking up.

no 2 is the reason most rape occurs these days. Women get into all kinds of irresponsible relationships, with men they barely know and then the guy obviously utters a blunder during coitus (e.g. another girl's name) and so she freaks out and changes her mind all of a sudden! You're talking about unstoppable "animal instinct of procreation"!?! Mind you the guy might be even dead drunk by then... and next thing you hear - it was rape!
In my grandma's days the woman spent some times knowing the guy and his family and required him to marry her before opening her legs to him! Nowadays women engage in unstable, reckless sexual activities and expect to be able to suddenly change their minds in the middle of congress!?! This is a joke that is wasting judiciary time and tax-payers' money a lot!!! Given that is a crime (only crime for that matter), based entirely on hearsay and which account for most rape cases!

Zander - if you have "already ****** her she shouldn't be saying no anymore" - why the hell not? Being willing on one occasion isn't an open invitation for ever more

.................if any man EVER tried the one and done excuse on a women, you ******* would bad mouth him to every one you knew calling him a "2 pump chump" or something.

THINK before you try to argue a point again.

Oh please. You obviously don't know how most women think. Men **** women just one time very often and when that happens the woman it happened to most likely isn't going to tell anyone because she may feel she was no good, or he doesn't like her, and she is too embarrassed to tell anyone it happened.

Unlike many women I am not afraid to speak up. I've said no to men who already ****** me once because they sucked in bed and I never wanted to have sex with them again.

If a women is shallow enough to get involved in a one night stand, she doesn't have any room to talk when it comes to sexual judgement.

So is the same true for men also? Because plenty of men are "shallow enough" to get involved in one night stands. So if the woman he wants to have sex with again says "no thanks because you are lousy in bed", he also "should have no room to talk" or insist or force her to do so . . . right?

Hitting them in the balls would only stop many of them for a moment. They'd recover quickly with anger and inflict more violence.
I've been sacked many times and it isn't as debilitating as you suggest. Of course it depends on how well placed and powerful the sacking is. A very hard kick is the most effective, a hard slap is not.

TRUE, TRUE MY DEAR FRIEND. BUT BEFORE I PRESCRIBE ANOTHER SUGGESTION I PRAY THAT WE ATTEND SOME OTHER MATTERS FIRST.

YOU SEE, RESTRICTING WOMAN FROM THEIR NATURAL FLAIR OF CHOICES ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR CLOTHES OR ANY KIND OF APPEARANCE HAD NEVER WORKED, OUR MUSLIM SISTERS WORE BURQKHA ,BUT IT DIDN'T HELPED AT ALL, AS THE NA-PAKS (IMPURES) HAD STILL SAVAGED THEM. NEITHER IT DID FOR THE WOMAN WHO LEARNT SELF-DEFENCE OR WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN STRICTLY RESPONSIBLY CAUTIOUS, AS TRANQUILISERS AND PLOTS OF THE DATE-RAPERS WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE UPPER HAND. THERE EXIST NO CIVILLIZED SOCIETY WHERE RAPE IS NOT DETASTED BUT IRONICALLY THERE EXIST NO SOCIETY AT ALL WHERE RAPE IS NOT EXERCISED.NOR IT BECAME BENEFICIAL BY PUNISHING SUCH SAVAGES BY MORE BARBARIC PUNISHMENTS LIKE CASTRATIONS.
BUT A SMALL TOKEN SECURITY AND RELIVE IS THERE AND THAT IS TECHNOLOGY. I ONCE WATCHED A SHOW WHERE IT CLAIMED THAT IN ITALY WOMAN THERE POSSESS A SPECIAL KIND OF BRA, NOT THOSE SILLY PEPPER SPRAYS OR MINITURE HAMMERS, WHERE ON THE BRIDGE OF THE TWO CUPS LIES A SWITCH, ON TIMES OF NEED THEY PRESS THAT SWITCH, IT SENDS THE STRESS SIGNAL BACK EITHER TO THE POLICE HEADQUATERS OR THE LOCAL ONES, CONVEYING THE STRESSED PARTY'S POSITON AND IDENTITY. I OPINE THAT OUR WORLD IS GROWING, AT LEAST IN TERMS OF TECHNOLOGY.FROM DRONES TO TOILETREE, IF SOME TECHNOLOGY SPARED FOR THOSE WHOM WE CALL WOMANKIND , FOR SAKE OF THE CIVILLIZATION,
I THINK THE RATIO OF SUCH VIOLENCE IS BOUND TO TURN NEGLIGABLE.
TAKE CARE

SAPIAN.........

Getting a stun gun and aiming that at the rapist's package often works too.

If you take prudent precautions and you get your stuff stolen anyway, is it your fault you were not careful enough? If you don't take precautions and then get robbed; is it because you secretly wanted to be robbed? And are women property in your mind?

Lets talk more about prudent precautions taken by women. Wear shortest shorts, slutty clothes, tightest tops that instantly arouses men sexually. Get drunk, lie there passed out with sexy clothes. Talk in flirty way giving men clues but not expect him to think anything dirty. Become cheerleader and wiggle *** and breasts. WTF? So prudent precautionary measures.
Pull out all the cases where girl acts modestly and still gets raped, hell Iranian laws should be followed on that loser.

When i got raped I was wearing jeans and a loose hoodie. I was also 100% sober unfortunately. I was really quiet...I def didn't flirt w/ this guy. I was very modest because I was trying to be a virgin when I got married. I know many modest girls who were raped...

I don't think being raped because you get drunk, walk alone at night, have been drugged and are unconscious, are wearing a short skirt, are jogging in a park at 5 am, are looking like a man's ex-girlfriend he's still hung up on, are asleep in a bed, are doing laundry, are in a coma, have changed your mind in the middle of sexual activity, gave refused to engage in sexual activity, are a child, are not in the mood for sex, are a step-daughter watching tv, or are having your house broken into, is in any way comparable to being robbed because you leaving your credit card somewhere, leaving your gold on a table, keeping a million dollars on a road side, leaving your house open with obvious signs that say don't enter and steal anything, leaving a bank and all its lockers open, or throwing away expensive diamonds on road to pick up tomorrow. First having something stolen in the ways you explained isn't nearly as violent, destructive, and traumatic as rape. Just stealing something from someone does not do as extensive physical, emotional, and mental damage as raping them does. One is a violent crime, and the other is not.
Second, the things you described a victim of theft has done versus the things this story describes that a victim of rape has done are far from even being close to the same kind of thing that would result in a person's exposure to the crime. The things you described are far more likely to result in theft than the things the author described should result in rape.