Natural State, A Laughing Matter?




I don't find rape funny. I don't believe that a man's natural state is rapist... I have more understanding of both men and humor than to do that.
Vivagalore Vivagalore
31-35, F
30 Responses Jan 9, 2013

If evolution is true, then it is probably correct to say that rapist is man's natural state - survival of the fittest, wanting to reproduce our genes as many times as possible, etc. We are just male animals making use of female animals, and because we are bigger and stronger we can do it.

(I don't believe evolution to be true.)

Yep it's perfectly natural to be criminal, and to want to hurt your own species. It ensures teat the offspring will have teh benefit of two parents working as a unit together, and that the female is deeply bonded with that offspring. Clever of God to think that one up, eh?

I agree and I really think all real rapists should be castrated no question. First it would control their uncontrollable urges and secondly it would make others think twice.
Surely more sense than locking them up and their victims would know they paid a price for their misdeeds.

Hi there my name is SACH,
cool and fun,
21,
studying actor from the UK,
please befriend me,
I entertain with intent,
feel free to view my profile and stories beforehand
to get a fun feel
PEACE......................
KING-KISSES XOXOXOXOXOXOXO

you make a GREAT point.......

Define hip sir?

Hip is determined by the amount of baby bling a baby king has.

HAHA...........
thats funny.

You dont like me do you?
Man;
I have been called a hardcore flirt,
a pervert (WTF?)
and other silly names;
but ALWAYS gained these folks friendship in the end
so stop killing me please with the digs? lol

Thank you!

Very apt friendship request btw

;-)

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Rape isn't funny. It is, short of murder, the worst crime a person can commit because it denies the humanity of the victim.

WOW -
That is powerful
#REALSHIT

Absolutely

What is the mental status of most rapists? Is there some report and facts about rapists? and do they have mental illness? I am curious, and will be open-minded about this.

And here is one more that has a lot of facts and touches on the subject of mental illness:

http://sapac.umich.edu/article/52

thank you hon

I'm sorry Shelly... how incredibly difficult this has to be....

A lot of brain chemistry is inherited and certain mental illnesses can run in the family, but my understanding is that rape on it's own is not classified as a mental illness.

Did they tell you what type of mental illness your son has?

schropheniza is one of them, that he is a child sex predator, and he have autism. He lives in a group home about 4 hours away from me. I cant be around no children. He is very sick.

Ahhhhh! I see! How heart breaking for you. I give you lot of credit for helping protect children from being around him.
How hard for a mom...

Its has been hard. what sad, I do have autism myself. and I do know 3 of my kids got autism due to me.
I was sexual abuse from 4 years of age to 19 years of age, they said, I suffered from battered wife syndrome due to childhood sexual abuse.
I was raped several times,
by 2 men and one woman. by gunpoint. only point to this, my rapist bragged about raping me, and I was the only victim living all the other women and girls, they killed and cutted them into many pieces body parts.
what was the difference?? I begged for them to kill me, but he told me I needed to live, that he knows I will report this, and they will find my dna in you, and that you are alive, not dead. I was only 14 when that happened.
then of course I was raped by my child's rapist, he too was a serial rapist, I was just wearing a tshirt and jeans, nothing fancy but fishing and no makeup, had not showered in 3 days, getting ready for a hunting trip for deer and he raped me. the point is, rapists dont care what you are wearing, its the boyfriends who thinks he has the right to get sex, cause he paid for your meal and taken you out on a date.

"I was the only victim living all the other women and girls, they killed and cutted them into many pieces body parts."

Oh my god. I had to read this twice to make sure I read it properly! I have no words.... what has happened to you is - no exaggeration - like a horror movie.

Did they catch the men and women who hurt you?

yes they did, they try to make me talk in court, but I did not want to , the female state attorney was mean, it was the rapist attorney who spoked up for me and told the woman to leave me alone. the man already said what he done to me, and I really did not want to come to court. My rapist spoked up for me and told the woman, that stop it, I did it, just leave her alone, I let her live, just stop it. finally she stopped it. My mom told me she is one of those femenist women, who attacks men. Then the judge told her to stop it, cause I crawled under the chair afraid and started crying. I did not want to come to court, and she made me.

the whole story sounds convoluted !


and your friends with lanavor22 hmmm

what is convoluted???
They did not know my past, and why are you worried who I am friends with??
I can be friends with anyone, those are the rules, I can respect those who believe in different things, and dont judged them on that.
I have all kinds of friends really, I have gay friends, cross dresser, poor people, rich people cause I dont sit there and judged them, cause I sure dont want to be judged myself. I know I am different, and know I had a very bad childhood, and know having autism,learnding disablities, and even having ok, mild mental retardation. there I said, it, does this makes you happy??
why should I judged you of the friends you have??
I have friends all over the world, and different relgions, and even those who dont believe in a God.
I do read what people have to say, and even learn from them. its all part of respect and seeing their view.

Is it so hard for you to see that I was a victim of rape??? were you ever a victim of rape?? and why are you questioning me on the matter??

You said your son has autism, right?
What causes autism isn't determined...and autistic people aren't necessarily "sick"so much as "different."
The autistic have a very hard time understanding people. They are capable of caring about people, but they can't express it in the way non-autistic people do unless they learn to.
They really don't understand other people well at all, and mostly find people overwhelming and frightening. They don't live in a friendly world.
:(

"They don't live in a friendly world."

Exactly... that must be so hard :(

The world itself is not a friendly place, but we do manage to live within this world, some of us much harder than others, Its extremely hard for those who are non verbal, and dont have the brain cells to learn or comprenhen.Not a good speller, still working on that.

It was difficult for me for a while, sure I went to school, but in special eduction, but in 2004, I finally learned to read, by volunteering in a kindergarden classroom. I learn the letters sounds and able to put more words together, and just started reading everything I can put my hands on. My thirst for hunger of reading, education has expanded. there are times I do have difficult time in communtation. and get things confused and mixed up. I cant transfer information that someone told me to tell someone else. I have the diagnoised of pdd to asperger autism.

I started speaking at 7 years of age, potty trained at 11 years of age, and yes learned to read in 2004. I have came a long way, I can drive, tried to work at places, but had kids, and the respite care for my son is $22.00 an hour. so not worth to work and pay someone that kind of money.
My kids are in the austistic programs.
My daughter is 22 has a baby, has autism. he is 16 days old. so far she is doing well as a mommy.

Aww.... so many challenges.... Many autistic people are very very bright, but simply have issues communicating or catching nuance/sarcasm/jokes, etc. I can understand that it would be hard to transfer information to someone else.

Congratulations on your grandchild! 16 days old... he is brand new!

thankyou, he is a sweet baby, but there is a chance he too will have autsim. but its all good, I take him anyway.

I have 2 sons with autism, and a daughter. and believe it, I have a very smart one, who is in the 9th grade taking college courses, they said she is gifted.

my son who is severly sick, my 19 year old , he was born with mengetistis on the brain, pheumonia, and had 2 heart attacks and lived on the ecmo machine.

my 17 year old son who have autism, had a stroke when he was 2 and have parkinson disease.

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Hey, y'all check THIS out...<br />
<a href="http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Have-A-Rape-Fantasy/3171161" target="ep_blank">EP Link</a><br />
Rape Fantasy<br />
Not my only fantasy, but I definitely get off on dominating, and forcing my girls to enjoy themselves.-leptar<br />
<br />
...It's not so much what he posted, it's where he posted it...I wonder if the reason he thinks rape ought to be easy to get over is so he doesn't have to feel too bad for contemplating a spot of rape?

Uh ohhhhhhh..... buuuuusted!

I am laughing Gnome.... yep!

I've heard this qoute before, and I have to say, that I disagree with both.
Rape jokes strike me and many people as funny. Humour doesn't have to match up with someones moral code to be a joke, it just has to get laughs.
Simple as that.

Then as far as men being rapists..genetically? I can't really see reason why not but for the sake of argument, even if men weren't born rapists culture certainly finishes the job by the time we grow up. I think that even the man who acts as indignant about rape as the most outrage rape victim turned feminist is feeding the rape culture.

It's power game, and there will always be guys who need power so much that they're willing to give their lives for it.
So I say don't give a crap. do what you are willing and able to do to protect yourself, but if you fall short then you fall short. If you lose a fight you don't have to go into a wallow of self pity and violation because you got beat and somebody stuck something into you.

Dangerous yes, but it doesn't have to be as outrageous as it is. and my little theory is that when it stops being so taboo, people will lose interest.

Um..... "I think that even the man who acts as indignant about rape as the most outrage rape victim turned feminist is feeding the rape culture."?

Can you please clarify before I respond? You think a man who acts as indignant about rape as a rape victim is feeding rape culture?

" If you lose a fight you don't have to go into a wallow of self pity and violation because you got beat and somebody stuck something into you."

I hope you never experience the horror and violation of being raped. Nice trolling though.

me too! and thanks ^.^

lol.... I'm not even going to bother. Have a nice night and enjoy your sleep under the bridge!

I also don't think he realizes that rape can mutilate women physically as well as mentally. Their vaginas can become ripped and torn, and permanently damaged, and they can experience vaginismus which can make sex that they want just as painful as rape, so wanted sex can become almost impossible. Rape can also result in STDs that can cause permanent damage and sterility, including deadly HIV and Hepatitis C, as well as pregnancy.

The idea that any woman who experienced that would just be able to blow it off and move on is absurd. Perhaps if they punished rapists by making them experience those same kinds of things (rip up their dicks, infect them with diseases, etc.) they would think twice about doing it again (or just wouldn't be physically able to).

Oh, and BTW, most men who are raped suffer the same kinds of psychological problems that women do. I don't know anyone (male or female) who has been raped, beaten, molested, robbed, tortured, kidnapped, threatened, etc. who has been able to just forget about it as if nothing happened to them and move on. We aren't like animals. We have far more complex brains and as a result we feel far more complex emotions, and only people who suffer from mental problems such as psychosis and sociopathy can do what he is suggesting.

I was waiting for someone to bring up the physical side of things.
Yeah it's true, as I said, that rape is dangrous on several levels. So before I go into it, let me be clear that I do no disregard the physical danger.
And as a side note, when I refer to rape victims and rapist I try to be gender neutral.

As far as I know the incidents of such extreme injury are rare but I could be wrong for sure. If you got facts to prove that I'd love to hear em.
Actually the physical side of things is basically getting beat up.
even diseases are contracted in such beatings. Plenty of people die of bloodborn illness after severe beatings.

That much just to support my comparison of rape to beating. The only real difference being the risk of pregnancy in female victims.

Then emotionally, yes you are absolutely right about all these things, HOWEVER, I think that a lot of this trauma is developped because society programs everyone so strongly with how horribly it would hurt their minds, wills ect, and also that yes it is an extremely deviant idea, but my thought is that if it was possible to shrug off the hurt, it would make rape obsolete.

This aside, I think that victims of violence want peace, not punishment.
Just putting that out there in response to your second sentence, second paragraph.

I think he does realise it

I think Mr. Leptar knows exactly what he is doing and I don't think he believes what he is saying as much as he is enjoying the reactions.

Fair to say Leptar?

I believe that I know what I'm talking about yes.
and yes I am enjoying the reactions, but trust me, I believe what I say wholeheartedly.

Warning, folks...Gonna get graphic here...

One night in the future...picture it...you've been out to a bar with friends. But they had work, so they took off. No big deal. However, you're a little tipsy, so you decide to walk from the bar to a nearby all-night diner, to get coffee and sober up a bit.

Before you notice anything, this guy is right behind you. A huge guy. He puts his huge arm around your neck in a choke hold. You fight.
No matter how hard you fight, the guy fights harder. In the end he beats you into vomiting and breathless exhaustion. You're helpless and too winded, and you are lying on the pavement, unable to rise.
Then you find it's not just a robbery.
He drags you, stunned and bleeding, into a nasty alley with rats and trash, pulls down your pants and begins to sodomize you right there, in the gutter filth.

What if, amid the agony of having an unlubricated d!ck pounding away at you, and feeling the blood trickling out of your burning rectum, you realize you are getting aroused. You find your body is betraying you...
You try to stop it, but it's no use. You have an org@sm, completely unwillingly.
Your assailant then says: "See, b!tch? I KNEW you wanted it." He spunks, then wipes himself off in your hair, leaving behind your own sh!t and blood.

...Ya gonna just shrug that off and forget about it?

...And YES, male penetrative rape victims have org@sms during their rape OFTEN. It's awful.

I'd certainly try XD good writing skills though.

Thanks...Thought maybe it'd help you get it.
Nope.
Might want to check for an event horizon around your head. Density's pretty high.

on the other hand I have rational validation for my thoughts. You've got clever insults.

when you're done poking around my page for event horizons, consider checking your facts.

Oy, Leptar! Oy.... at least you admit to liking the reactions. The rest we'll have to deal with..... cough

correct me if I'm wrong, but you think I'm trolling...So why are you still talking to me XD

With all due respect, what's your point?

Are you directing that question to me Leptar? If so my reply is as follows:

- I wanted to ask you directly (and not just assume) if you were trolling before opening a can of whoop *** on you. (I do see that's already been done)

- you are posting on one of my best girlfriend's stories. I will always be interested in the comments.

So there we are!

I gotcha.
Woop *** is welcome.

that's so full of **** ! Your just in denial.....oink!

rape is not to joke about. its a crime, and its real.

that's a more reasonable statement then the op's "rape is not a joke"
I disagree with you also as it turns out.
Only on the first point though.

Yes it is a crime and it is real.
Also, is it better to laugh at things that scare you, or whimper over them?
that aside, half of comedy is irreverance. yes it's a real issue, no comedy is not expected to care.
Yes it can be funny.

: ) those are the facts.

Why would a man that finds rape repugnant be facilitating rape culture?

because it empowers the act of rape.

It's outlandish to think how strongly you react to something is your choice?

And that by extension, reacting strongly encourages the agressor to continue doing what they're doing because no matter how sick, you are giving them exactly the joy they want?

The choice to overpower somebody is in the hands of the agressor. How seriously the victim takes it's their choice.

caps. nice.

nah you don't have to feel, do, think, or say anything. And it's my bad if I implied you did.

And if we agree that there is a choice to fight, and a choice on how to feel, and a choice to stop future abuse then we agree on about 75% of this topic so there's nothing really to argue over : P

Wow..how original. The force is strong in this one folks.

I think he meant some times you have to say "I'm just not gonna make my whole life about this". Some times that's all you can do. I still get harrassed by friends and family members of guys that ***** me when I was a kid. But Im just not gonna make my life about that.

"toy"...meaning d*ck? Penis?
Are you saying that an assault is eqaul to mutilation?
because that's pretty extreme punishment.

And yet the victim has a pretty good chance of recovey, while the assailant is almost assured a life of misery.
I don't actually agree with the mainstream ideas of justice either but I know enough to see that doesn't fit at all.
Beside that fact, it pretty much looks lik the harm of rape is (usually) an emotional one. Therefore a permanat physical punishment is unfitting at all.

not to mention it's highly impractical. They say..1 out of every 5th?... women are sexually assaulted. If that's the case that leave a huge amount of rapists.
Cosidering the rape fault is a masculine viewed trait that leaves almost ALL men voting no, and pobably more then a couple women.

As a matter of fact, I agree that a change as to be made in order to lower rape statistics, but if you're trying to be serious you need a better viewpoint for the reasons I made clear above.

WOW 777heaven! đź’Ą I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with you so wholeheartedly but it had to happen one day - LOL. đź’ť

I think you seriously don't understand the effect of such a violation, leptar.

I hope you never find out, but I wish you'd find the strength to exercise a bit more sensitivity

mm. believe it or not, I have a clear knowledge of what sensitivity is, and it took a great deal of it to arrive at the conclusions I've come up with so far.

@leptar - you have changed my way of thinking. I'm now convinced that the rape of males is comparatively trivial

wouldn't suprise me.

29 More Responses

So, nschildress What does culture require to resolve these issues?

Link: http://ca.music.yahoo.com/blogs/stop-the-presses/miley-cyrus-outrageous-vma-performance-shocks-everyone-165836505.html

AND

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/teens-view-sexting-090527266.html

If culture is the method to prevent rape... then why are these cultural issues which our society incorporates which aid in promoting rape?

are there any studies that suggest in societies without a rape culture the molestation or coercive sexualization of children is or is not present? i wonder if molestation, as we understand it, transcends cultural lines? again you are not my personal librarian. feel free to tell ke to try and find the answer myself, however if you know off hand i would value your take on it.

I\'m always eager to help. The studies I have are locked behind a paywall with Jstor, gimme some time to see if I can\'t source some articles that refer to them.

I would be most interested about these.

Also keep in mind \"child molestation\" is very much culturally defined, in some countries marrying a 8 year old girl to a 60 year old man isn\'t a crime, isn\'t seen as a molestation... also sex with minors in many counties isn\'t illegal, so child molestation would only be in cases where the adult touched a child and the child resisted and proved that the adult was touching them against their will...

\"marrying a 8 year old girl to a 60 year old man isn\'t a crime, isn\'t seen as a molestation.\"
...Doesn\'t make it a good thing, though...I\'d argue that qualifies as coercive sexualization of children.

that sick.

Not many 8 year old girl menstruate, and that makes it a factor in whether it\'s a \'viable\' activity or not. It\'s also arguable that young teenagers who can become pregnant aren\'t physically adult enough to safely give birth

I\'m not endorsing it, I\'m merely explaining why it\'s going to be hard to get accurate cross cultural information on the subject of child molestation and why it will be difficult to make any global conclusions for the studies we have.

I know you aren\'t endorsing it. I\'m just laying down some moral guidelines here! Sheesh!

*sigh* Only way to change society is to take the long term method of changing the values of the children. Education. *sigh*

If we teach kids and adults the same things... nvm... I\'m not good.
*sigh*

Basically, you need to educate the children that what their parents, father, believes isn\'t the only way to live. That the truth is independent from reality. It\'s beneficial to ALL people to protect all members of society equally. Or just kill me.

I want to help people to make the right choices

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0qFcuIfYZ0&sns=em definitive evidence supporting the validity of evolpsychology?

Clan of the cave bear? O.o
There\'s evidence that Neanderthals and Cro-magnons did interbreed, a little.
They dined on each other too, there are many hominid skeletons with human teeth marks

We descended from ducks :-(

Howard the duck is in after overlooked bio flick documentary in the classical style. we could learn a lot from this creature if only we we more open minded to other interstellar species. *sigh*

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nschildress,

Is there something wrong with my point that you are wrong about a man's natural desire to dominate others?

Ok... How do you propose to use what you know to lower rapes?

I don\'t recall.. anything which is a step by step plan on how to reduce rapes.. what methods do you propose to use?

I\'m sure that society could work out a combination of castration and chastity belts

Chemical castration works... Steven Boggan had an article in the London Times (UK) back in August of 2008. He also appeared on the BBC Radio about the same time.

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i ******* hate men do much i am going to kill myself.

Calm down, it\'s not men you hate ...it\'s Ducks!

i love ducks.. especially of the chinese deep fried variety. though i would never force you through my maze. straight to my man womb vip access granted back stage pass lamented and stamped key to my dressing room make yourself a drink i will be back right after the encore.

get a room you two

My favorite thing about copper ?

His man womb !

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My "notes" would suggest that men either select who the want to r@pe and plan it a while in advance. Or they impulse r@pe what ever is closest to them.

Either way it I have never known any rapist to only have done it once.

I have. A few only rape once... but that\'s because they couldn\'t stand what they did.. or were caught; sometimes they turned themselves in to the police. But the media plays on the stereotypes.. what people believe... Offenders All rape and there is no cure... they just have more victims after being released... etc.

There is a line. I think it is clear.

And then we have my mother, who was of the opinion that rape was a natural part of the sexual experience. When our own mothers feel this way, and try to teach it to their daughters, what hope is there for humanity?

&lt;&lt;&lt; speechless.

That\'s why it\'s rape culture.

Maybe you can clarify the context you mother said this. Certainly she doesn\'t believe that a random stranger raping you is part of the sexual experience! But if she is anything like my mother, she may have been taught to believe that husbands have a right to sex with their wives. Is that what you are referring to?

Lagatta you don\'t want to know. Theremustbe already posted a comment that was essentially and anti-feminist screed and stated the only reasons her mother believes this is because she was a evil feminist.

O.O Feminist who believes rape is normal...that\'s really strange

Yes it would be the first I heard of :-P


I think someone thinks \"all men are rapists\" and \"all heterosexual sexual sex is rape\" are actually feminist quotes so they hoped to use this as a platform to misrepresent feminism.

Tmbawo is usually right on the level though...maybe her mother really was that warped. If mom was in denial that she\'d been chronically abused?
Mom might have embraced feminism, in other respects, but still thought rape was normal.
It would be very painful to look at.
So mom would be very motivated to deny.

I posted an anti-feminist screed? What? I\'m horrified--I am a dyed-in-the-wool card-carrying feminist. Please refer me back to what seemed anti-feminist so I can see what was so off the mark.

My mother\'s lesson in rape came in the form of a discussion of what happens at the end of the movie \"A Streetcar Named Desire.\" The main male character rapes Blanche, his sister-in-law, as his wife is delivering their baby. I was shocked by the scene. The event left Blanche, who was hanging by a thread, completely crushed.

My mother poo-pooed my distress as straight-laced and immature. As she put it, Stanley has sex with Blanche as an exuberant expression of his delight in the birth of his child. She viewed it as a normal expression.

We can get into a discussion of this difficult play, but suffice it for now that my reaction then and now is: W.T.F.?

Theremustbe I totally apologize. I mistook you your comment for another. Please forgive me! I would delete the comment I made but the really insightful comments which replied to it would also be deleted. I totally apologize !

Thank you, Ambi. I\'ve been rather upset about what I possibly could have written. On another topic, I\'ve lived about a year in the last 24 hours, and your apology really got my day off to the right kind of start to deal with the next 24.

(((HUGS)))

then let someone else mess it up for you!

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I can understand both ways. In our society nowadays, we should have control over such base desires, but at the same time, teenagers now try to wear as little clothing as they can.

It's really quite distressing

As you can see from the comments below clothing does not cause rape, rapists do!

Um, excuse me, but if people have the audacity to dress like ******, then they should be prepared to act like them. The rapist is definately in the wrong, but it is unnacceptable to dress like a ********.

They deserve to be raped if they dress like ******, don\'t they?

I hope this is sarcasm.

Sarcasm? Who, moi?

Yeah. People who dress like ****** only deserve a stern scolding from their mothers!

Hey, wait. It\'s not ok to rape strippers either...

I know, but it\'s the principal of it. Base instinct win people who are underdeveloped mentally, and when people dress like that it does not help. That said, there are other causes for rape

It\'s

What\'s happening to the appostrophes

so i guess according to moron logic guys in prison jumpers also are dressed to provocatively and are getting them selves up for rape?

OH my god... I can\'t believe some of these comments... and some people deny a rape culture and or/ that there is a problem with blaming the victim in our society....holy sh*t.

WOW....

Yo aren\'t reading everything i have written! I got raped. I dress in like 4 layers even in summer.

Of course prison garb is provocative! I\'m surprised most men don\'t dress like that when they\'re out on the pull

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What Unknown has written here is precisely what has always baffled me. Don't these victim blamers understand how their argument completely makes them out to be animals without any capability of reason? Or morals. Or compassion. Or personal accountability. Or restraint. Or anything decent. It seems pretty simple to me.

I cannot really add anything profound here. This topic has been addressed many times. But I was glad to see this, Ambiti-etc. It reminded me of a certain ClarifiedConcept guy, who posted a very long winded argument that women trick men into marrying them with ********. He quickly blocked me after I mentioned that his theory made him look like ignorant fool. And his representation of all men.

If you blow them they will come. To the altar.

You know, I agree with everything you said, Lilt. It IS pretty simple.

\"If you blow them they will come. To the altar\" - I am stealing this because each time I read it I dissolve in laughter...

hehe...there\'s a suckee born every minute.

*looks at clock and realizes how many are being produced*

I don\'t find they may even want a second date...Maybe I\'m doin\' it wrong...O.o

Oh my god that made me laugh out loud!

oh boy.. now i feel very foolish. all this time i was under the delusion i married for love. i can see it clearly now. i was sucked towards the alter by a powerful force beyond my ability to resist, compelling me to come. no wonder i havent got another ******* since :(

Don\'t worry Copper soon your wife will just divorce you anyways. She never loved you, she was tricking you because us women only marry men so we can divorce you and collect alimony.

Copper, I\'m sorry for your loss. I will direct you to the story that may help you make sense of it all. The researcher has accumulate an impressive collection of data. Even with a control group of one.
There may even be a hotline number you can call.
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Wonder-Sometimes-What-Is-Wrong-With-American-Women/2833304

Oh boy.. I mean oh girl/boy.. As I don\'t want to be sexist. I knew it was a grand comspiracy. I am getting a divorce and make a lifestyle change to homosexuality.

I squeaky laughed from beginning to end... Bravo! :D

Yes, you are a fool, \'suckered in\'. Now, if you were clever like conceptual you would never have made that mistake...

i wish i had it all figured outline conceptual. must be nice to have everything in your head make such perfect sense, even if to the rest of us it seems crazy.

He\'s gotta be the rightest person on earth

@ Coppy: Changing to homosexuality can be a pain in the a$$ for some people.
*hands over astroglide bottle*

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what are your thoughts on rape being a evolutionary strategy to males spreading their genes? rape exists in every culture throughout history and seems to be especially utilized when conquering another land or society. men are killed and women are raped though strangely enough in modern warfare killed as well. not a justification, just seems to be a dark side to human evolution.

Maybe.
Dunno, genetically we\'re similar to chimps and bonobo...Chimps are violent and patriarchal...bonobos are matriarchal and solve just about everything by having sex with each other.
I know which one I\'d rather emulate.
(Gotta go ATM)

SO the idea that that Rape has existed (exists) in every culture is a myth. (and one that feminists SUSAN Brownmiller et al largely perpetrated) ...

Just a brief synopsis (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1981.tb01068.x/abstract)

A large number of societies are rape-free (47%)

- rape is anything but universal

- not coming from a biological drive but rather a CONDITIONED RESPONSE (to the way certain societies are organized)

\"Sexual violence is no more inherent to masculinity than football.\"

Rape-prone societies
- regularly teach aggressive behavior, competitiveness, and the notion that men must overcome women
- less stable societies
- typical American rapist is not sexually deprived
- he is a hostile, aggressive man who likes to do violence to women

Rape-free societies
- value feminine qualities
- enjoy a stability that nullifies the necessity for male physical prowess


A Model Rape-free Society
Ashanti of West Africa
- Ashanti females are respected and influential members of the community.
- Ashanti religion emphasizes women’s contribution to the general well- being.
- Earth Goddess-main female deity
- women participate fully in religious life taking as important a ritual role as men.

Mbuti Pygmies (Colin Turnbull)
- hunt with nets-live harmoniously with the forest which provides all their needs-food, clothing
and shelter (forest takes offense at anger and discord)
- women share both work and decisions
- No Mbuti attempts to dominate another nor does the group as a whole seek to dominate nature.
- feminine qualities of nurturance and fertility rank among the culture’s most valued traits.


Rape-prone societies

Gusii of Kenya
47.2 rapes per 100,000 population in a year.

normal intercourse conceived as an act in which a man overcomes the resistance of a woman and causes her pain.

no wife respects a husband who fails to take her by force.

The use of rape to conquer unwilling brides or to keep women under tight control.

The US rate, one of the highest in the industrial world, was 13.85 per 100,000.

Practice-gang-rape unfaithful wives among Plains Indians (certain tribes only)

Mundurucu men of Amazon threaten to rape any women approaching the sacred trumpets.

Rape-prone societies (high incidence of rape)
- tolerate violence
- encourage men and boys to be rough, aggressive and competitive
- off limit sports to women (gatherings)
- women take little or no part in public decision making or religious rituals.
- men mock or scorn women’s practical judgment.
- They demean what they consider women’s work.
- Females remain aloof from childbearing and rearing.
- These groups trace their beginnings to a male supreme being.
- men in these societies perceive themselves as civilized animals

Sanday concludes - \"Rape is not inherent in men’s nature, but results from their image of that nature.\" It is a product of a certain set of beliefs, which in turn derive from particular social circumstance.


So you are only being conditioned to believe there is any strategy in rape, also of note that rapists rarely ever report desire to father children as a reason for or factor in passing on their genes, also of note, rapists often report taken precautions to not impregnate their victims ( various reasons feeling it is a privilege the victim is unworthy of, fear that proof of paternity could lead to being found out [most rapists are repeat offenders see predator theory] and more recently conviction because of dna)... This does become more complicated in terms of war rape, where genocide is the end game men will be encouraged to rape women with the intent of destroying ethnic lineages, however this idea is largely done in front of of the opposing men, (raping a mans wife in front of him) and often after being made to witness the rape with intentional *********** into the woman, both the husband and wife will be tortured, maimed and \"left for dead\" which does nothing to improve the actual likelihood of spreading ones genes... very complicated.

Also should we talk about Bonobos and Ducks...?

i dutifully read everything and watched the lecture on YouTube. i would definitely side with all the evidence presented in relation to rape within ones one culture or society as having a punitive effect on ones dawinian fitness, as the very intelligent gentleman said quite frequently. i also agree and recognise the validity of your evidence stating the cultural correlation between rape rates. however i find myself still very troubled with war rape. like you said, things get complicated. i know that it is commonly agreed through medical records that millions of women got abortions annually after the allies occupied Berlin and that 3 to 4 percent of all births were claimed to have soviet fathers, and those are just the girls who were not so ashamed as to conceal that info. i am sure many more were the result of other allied forces and cohesive sex for a bit of food or whatnot, which i consider rape as if you are starving you will *submit* to just about anything. now it seems to me that in spite of the large odds required to actually get pregnant and come to full term, that is still some pretty powerful evidence and some significant numbers to consider. i do acknowledge that the pregnancies could very well have been a bi-product of the rape and not the outcome of a genetic evolutionary disposition in man. no matter how you look at it rape is destructive and devalueing of humanity and poses a great threat to unity and equality as sentient beings under the umbrella of a shared genome and interlocking future together. thank you for your wonderful and illuminating reply, as always when relating with you, i learned something new.

http://www.sciencedump.com/content/homosexual-necrophilia-mallard-duck-ig-nobel-prizes

Male ducks are apparently prone to rape viciously...such that the female duck has evolved with a very involved, difficult-to-penetrate vagina to foil unwanted suitors:
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/12/22/ballistic-penises-and-corkscrew-vaginas-the-sexual-battles/

Unlike ducks, a huge amount of what shapes our behavior is culture. We have drives, but we have very little instinctual, automatic behavior.

And what\'s the most belligerent about those ducks is that these lady ducks have developed maze like lady duck parts so as to to not be raped and fertilized by these misogynyst dude ducks ...and the dude ducks are such misogynsts they developed specialized rape penii so as to get trough the lady ducks maze like lady parts defense.

Seriously, we should just describe rape culture as duck life.

i would accept the increased chance of being a victom of rape if it ment i was sexy enough to make money on a webcam playing with my *****. sorry off topic.

...Trust me, if I could ***** to pay for college? I\'d be strappin\' them heels on...

Well ain\'t that interesting! Rape is so awful that it\'s an evolutionary advantage to be rid of it.

Oooh, good point, Toba...

Duck Dynasty!

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NS: "And RedRubies has done the same... actually saying that carrying any form of self-defense device can only worsen the situation for someone."

Unsurprisingly, you have misquoted my words and taken them out of context NS. Here is what I actually said:

RR: "I have seen self defense experts warn never carry a **deadly** weapon unless you are prepared to have it grabbed and used against you."
*************

That is correct. Again, I have seen more than one self defense expert state this. The preference they had was to carry bear spray, etc., because if it is grabbed and used against you, at least it is not lethal.

Hope that helped.

I\'ve heard this too.
...I\'ve also seen the videos that show an experienced knife fighter can get inside on someone carrying a pistol before they can draw, aim and shoot.
That and my horrible aim with my pistol is why I carry a legal-carry knife instead.
Reminds me, it needs a lanyard.

If we really wanted to take NS and his misandrist rape apologia seriously i think we have a much better weapon of choice.

\"A South African doctor has created a female condom that puts teeth in the fight against rape.

Literally.

The anti-rape condom, called \"Rape-aXe,\" features rows of jagged hooks designed to attach to a man\'s penis during penetration. Once attached, the condom can only be removed by a doctor - hopefully when authorities can arrest him, Dr. Sonnet Ehlers, the condom\'s designer, told CNN.

\"It hurts, he cannot pee and walk when it\'s on,\" she said. \"If he tries to remove it, it will clasp even tighter... however, it doesn\'t break the skin, and there\'s no danger of fluid exposure.\"

Ehlers said she sold her house and car to launch the project, and she planned to supervise the distribution of 30,000 free devices in cities hosting the World Cup soccer matches. After the trial period, they\'ll be available for about $2 apiece, according to CNN.\"

http://www.antirape.co.za/

Unfortunately, I\'m given to understand it may cause the victim to get further assaulted...:(
...Thinking you\'d have to make an intravag!nal device that would cause major blood loss.
...I thought about having a spring-loaded surgical-steel claw assembly inside a tube, but you would be more likely to be exposed to HIV and hepatitis when he pulls what\'s left of his member out.
...So probably not a really good idea, but it makes me happy to contemplate such a thing.

\"it doesn\'t break the skin, and there\'s no danger of fluid exposure\"

You can argue it either way, in terms of \"more danger\" the argument is also presented that the condom once attached to the penis easily slips from the vagina, the natural reaction of the man will be to recoil, and his ability to chase and move freely will be greatly hindered, thus giving the woman time to escape.

Really though I completely agree with Jezebel/Lara

Lara Williams argues that the very existence of the Rape-aXe is an insult to women. She compares it to a modern-day chastity belt, and rightfully points out that this cannot prevent rape. Even if the Rape-aXe works perfectly, snaring the rapist\'s **** and incapacitating him with pain, it can only serve to cut the assault short. Penetration must occur in order for the Rape-aXe to work, which means the rape has already taken place. Williams also discusses the problems of anal rape (which would be a easy way for rapists to get around the device) and oral rape.

But for Williams, the biggest problem with the Rape-aXe is that it places the responsibility of preventing rape squarely on the soldiers of would-be victims. She writes,

Advocating placing a foreign object inside your body as a matter of course places the prevention of rape, once again, squarely with women. Tips on walking home at night are circulated amongst female friends and colleagues with the same tired routine as the latest YouTube meme. Women are berated for wearing revealing clothes and blamed for their attacks, whether for getting into an unlicensed cab or for flirting. The responsibility for stopping rape is aimed singularly at women. With all the effort exerted instructing women on how not to get raped, shouldn\'t an equal amount of ardour be directed at educating men to, well, not rape?
Although there is nothing wrong with Williams\'s argument - in fact, she raises some very good points about the disturbing prevalence of the blame the victim mentality that contributes so readily to rape culture - she displays an incredibly western-centric view of both the product and the crime that inspired it.


http://jezebel.com/5536082/penis+shredding-condom-cant-actually-prevent-rape

http://jezebel.com/5536082/penis+shredding-condom-cant-actually-prevent-rape

...No, the anti-rape condom doesn\'t prevent penetration...it also does very little for more than one assailant.
South Africa apparently has the highest rape rates in the world, though.
Since I would like to know why...

\"Cultural norms emphasising male dominance and female submissiveness are also strongly associated with sexual violence. The same is true for carrying weapons, drinking, and drug use, according to the MRC researchers\"...
...\"According to Antony Altbeker\'s book, “A Country At War With Itself”, which is regarded as an authoritative account of South Africa\'s crime problem, a widespread social acceptance of violence means that the communities often protect perpetrators while “law enforcement is generally very weak”. \"
\"Corruption and lack of resources aggravate the problem. The consequence, according to Mr Altbeker, is that reporting is infrequent, punishment is rare, the law fails to deter would-be criminals, and victims have little faith in the system.\"
( From page 2 of http://allafrica.com/stories/201308021370.html )
\"Vulnerability of children who are orphaned or abandoned by poor, working or shiftless parents is a major factor that feeds into high rape incidence, MRC researchers agree. Mr McKaiser adds: “Archaic patriarchal notions are prevalent—men ought to be bread-winners, strong and independent—leaving many men not only to struggle through their poverty but also to feel grossly inadequate.” \"
(From page 3 of same)

Holy ****. Where can I go to throw some money at this project? This sounds awesome!!!

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Ambi,

How interesting this thread has turned. I have limited time but allow me a few points:

"And last, if you really want to lower rapes, teach women to fight and use firearms, the great equalizer"

To say that if women are armed they won’t get raped displays a lack of understanding about the majority of rape cases. As Hylier noted, a large portion of rape victims know their rapist. The onus should be placed on men to not commit rape, instead of adding yet another responsibility on women’s shoulders to not get raped.

Plus, in order for a gun to be effective, you have to a) have it ready and loaded. The obvious problem with this is that most rapists aren't going to announce they are about to attack or rape you.

b)I have seen self defense experts warn never carry a deadly weapon unless you are prepared to have it grabbed and used against you.

No matter how a women dresses, what she wears or what she drinks, she is not responsible for a man forcing himself inside of her.

I do love that this brilliant man is suggesting that all men are rapists by nature and the only thing a woman can do to be empowered is to be a vigilante. Last time I checked 1. Most men aren\'t rapists 2. The penalty for rape is not death.


Essentially is argument is the only way we can have equality is to empower women to shoot men on sight .

Yes. I am not going to adjust my thinking to believe most men are out to *get* me (I am blessed having the fabulous male friends I do!) and that I should keep a loaded gun on me. I have no problem with anyone who does carry a gun - not many do where I live - but it\'s not the solution to men raping.

Yes TheBoyWonder, that is what we were discussing in previous comments as well. So....the answer to rape prevention is not that women should be expected to carry loaded guns around male friends/acquaintances in case one of them suddenly attacks (sigh). :)

Cheers!

Disgusting, I was wearing a baggie shirt and baggie blue jeans. Rape isn't about what a person wears or does. Plain and simple it is about violence and control.

I would like to rate this up more than once. Exactly. Thank you, and I am so sorry you were hurt.... :(

Even better: women and non-rapist men rejoice!

Well... you do have a point there. *hugs Scar*

Ok.. let's discuss what are aspects of the rape culture?

Don't you think we discussed plenty today? Can't we save this for tomorrow or something?
Or someone else wants to do this today... Ruby? Dente? Anyone?

I'm okay with discussing the "zero tolerance empowerment for girls (daughters)" subject below untill you're satisfied though, if that's worth something too. :-)

Well... I think I know most aspects of rape culture... once we identify those aspects for others... then we can discuss was to change the thinking of society...

Am I a rapist?

Only when you had sex with someone without their full, active and enthusiastic consent.

Do I have the mind set of a rapist?

I can't tell for sure, but your words in this story do imply you are influenced by rape culture quite a bit, yes.

How much am I influenced? Influenced enough that I don't want my young daughters wearing swimsuits which emphasizes their body? Some swimsuits I've seen in the news, and let's not get started on the pageants, are not appropriate for children yet they are sized for girls under the age of 8. I know what peadophiles say about those girls... 'eye candy' they say... which encourages them to think of the children as sex objects.

Is there anything different between the children and the adults? A bit. Yet taking steps so the perverts out there don't want to rape you is self-protection. Yes, they'll probably rape a different person.... but by the time they are passed all those interior and external barriers... only way to prevent them is to use force when they try to rape someone.

You gave up I hear? I protect myself too and I do mention these things too (albeit briefly), but most of my time and effort is in educating people and putting the focus on the rapists and the enablers of rapists (= rape culture).

Children and adult women are a bit different though, I think "protect yourself from harm" is a part of parenting. It's not the same as telling an adult woman "you can't do the same things as a man, because you could get raped".

Like I said somewhere below: zero tolerance for rapists, educating against rape culture. That's the bigger picture and eventually, this will benefit your daughters to when they've reached -let's say- my age.
Of course: raising your daughters with advice how to protect themselves is a good thing and none of my business, even when they're teenagers some day.

@ Issy: me too, me too. :-) It's the only way really.

I know. If it isn't enthusiastic... then they have doubts... if pushed.. they will be raped. Some don't have the confidence to say, stop.

"Children and adult women are a bit different though, I think "protect yourself from harm" is a part of parenting. It's not the same as telling an adult woman "you can't do the same things as a man, because you could get raped".
*************************

Agree again Scar. Well said!

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I would just wonder one thing. Do you leave your home door unlocked? Everyone knows that sooner or later the property would be stolen. Burglary is prohibited. Open door or anything else do not make it acceptable. There are burglar and there are rapists. Getting raped is not victim's fault, but to be safe there are some things to avoid. And one of them is not to provocate criminals.

And by the way, acting in certain ways is precisely calling for sex. "No" means no, but no woman should play stupid. After an evening long flirt and kissing there should be a good reason to say no. Even in that case raping is raping, but playing with other people's sexuality is nothing but pure stupidity. Because some women are saying that a kiss is not commitment, there is a good reason to ask what is then? Should men fill a form to ask for permission to react to women's open sexual behavior? And, finally, would asking that permission be a sexual insult?

I am a victim of sexual violence. I can remember very well the embarrassment of being forced to lie on the floor naked and beaten in front of my neighbor by my family member. I have been able to forgive it to some extent but I will never forget. Anything of that was not my fault, but even after 30 years I can feel the shame. Of course, as a man, I do not have the same need to wear sexy clothes, act in sexual ways or be afraid of random rapists. As a man I still do not go the places where random violence is probable. I do not leave my door unlocked. I do not **** up drunken and violent people. I am not fighting for right to be unrealistic.

Not to blame anyone about what has happened, I'm just asking for good habits. From my perspective, **** walks and naĂŻve feminist propaganda is nothing but campaigning for rights to aggress, be senseless and behave stupidly. To put it extremely, these -ists are insisting that it is perfectly correct that their teenage daughters walk naked and drunken on the streets and flirts with anyone. Once again: even that kind of behavior is not permission to forced sex. But there are criminals who do not ask for permissions. Some or any kind of a suitable stimulus causes them to act. Our being right here by computers does not make them good. What, finally, are these **** walkers and feminists campaigning for? Marching on the streets does not heal any criminal. Neither does pamphlets and propaganda. I am sorry to have just one answer in my mind and it does not favor any respectable woman, wearing appropriate or slutty clothes.

Victims are not guilty. Still, everyone should take care of safety.

"I'm not blaming the victim, but... *totally blames victim*."

It's not about the sl*tty clothes or behavior, it's about the slippery slope, that there is no solid line between blame and safety.
Because seriously, it's the same damn argument and I -as a feminist- am not fighting the exact content of that argument, I'm fighting the argument itself!

Really, when you state "not wearing sl*tty clothes and acting flirty and easy = rape prevention", my thought is: where is the line? Is a skirt sl*tty? How long has this skirt has to be? Is a kiss being easy? a smile flirting? a wink?
And what will be the next step? Walking outside alone? Drinking 2 glasses of wine at a party? Not wearing a headscarf?

We cannot allow these arguments to be valid, not because they wouldn't make sense, but because they're not solid and are easy to exploid.
This is why I'm against victim blaming, not because I think dressing and acting sl*tty is awesome and cool (because I think it's not: not for women and not for men).

What would you think is appropriate clothing, being realist and remembering that we have these criminals around? The most of the men are sexual, the most of the sexual mend are sensitive to visual stimuli and, thank God or whatwhoever, most of the men control their responses to sexual stimuli.

This is not about formal logic, in which you have to define your propositions. You can crave for limits of acceptable clothing, but they will not be defined. What a mystery! Most of us can still tell what kind of clothing is appropriate and what is offensive. More mystic is that we, even we, men, can tell apart different kind of social situations where different kind of clothing is appropriate. This depends on culture, but young people seem to think that cultural things are "only cultural". Actually, they are quite stable. You can demand for being allowed to wear a miniskirt and a stamp sized top on an appointment with the principal of your university. Probably the secretary would not let you in. Maybe in the next millennium, but who knows, if that is a norm then...

I am not talking about ontology of sexuality or metaphysics of clothing or evolution of habits. I am asking for good everyday sense and being polite. Sexuality and being sexually interesting is a great gift and powerful social tool. You should respect it. Behaving politely with men is safer than playing other people's sexuality. Question is not only about getting raped or not, but also not giving signals that can possibly be misunderstood.

Your response makes me mad, you really do have the mindset of a rapist.

I'm not even going to reply, maybe someone else bothers to do so, because really, your response makes me feel angry and powerless as a woman.
Your response is oppressive and reminds me a little of sharia.

I am sorry for your feelings. My aim was not to insult. However, is having ideas different from yours a good reason to call me a rapist? Is there any good reason to call me or my mind rapist? And if there is an idea about behaving, speaking or clothing that does not totally fit into your worldview, is it reasonable to call it sharia? I am not asking any woman to wear burkas.

I have another point of view, too. Rapes take place also in cultures, where women's clothing is strictly fixed. I think that news about recent violent rape and the death of the victim are heard around the world. If raping does not depend on women's clothing, acting or speaking, what is the ultimate reason for this urge to have **** walks and wear sexy clothes? "For fun" is not a sufficient answer because then there is a question of why it is fun.

Scar, txava doesn't have the mind set of a rapist. I KNOW what their mind is like. I dealt with many of them over the course of several years.

What he is saying makes sense. He never once said he supported sharia law. Sharia law has items which go against the Qur'an.

Let's see how I can explain his point.

If you go to Jamaica, Cuba, and Mexico to stay at a resort. If you decide to visit the local population, the towns, and villages, there are some locations which you will be told to not go to. The chance of being robbed is quite high in those areas. Let's call those areas slums for a lack of a better word.

In those slums you will be accosted. It will be apparent to the locals that you are a tourist. As a tourist you will have items on you which can be stolen; cash, jewelry, cell phone, cameras, etc. Is it your fault that there are those in those slums who will accost others for their items? No. Is it your fault for being robbed? No. Did you take steps to prevent yourself from being robbed? No.

How were you identified by the locals that you weren't a local? The way you were dressed. They way you were acting. Most importantly, the location you were at.

What are the steps to avoid being robbed?
First, avoid locations where it is likely. The slums.
Secondly, you dress like a local so that they don't realize you don't belong there.
Thirdly, you behave as though you are a local. Languages and accents will give you away, yet if you look like you aren't worth the effort to accost, you won't be. Usually.

Nothing will prevent a rapist from raping a woman. Well.. unless the rapist tries and is prevented by force by the victim, sometimes, but most often by others otherwise he will rape.

To lower the risks of being raped. What do you do?
First, avoid locations where it is unsafe to be. Jogging at night along a bike path.

Secondly, avoid provocative clothing. Wearing modest clothes will have the rapists looking elsewhere because you aren't 'advertising to them how much a sex object you are.' Note the quotation marks... that is exactly how rapists think. Most adults will be able to see you as a woman wearing dressy clothes. Rapists will just see what they want to see, yet why take steps to encourage them to see what they want to see?

Thirdly, avoid actions which entice the rapists to view you as a sex object. Also, avoid actions which would make you look as an easy target. Being drunk lowers inhibitions in both the rapist and their victims. Other substances do the exact same thing. A bit of it in your drink at a bar would be enough if you don't make sure your drink/food isn't tampered with.

Doing things 'for fun' in unsafe environments isn't logical, unless steps are made to protect yourself.

Recently, two teenage boys were charged with rape. One was also charged with production, and distribution of child ***********. They went to a house party. They met a girl. As the night progressed she drank enough to pass out. The two boys weren't drunk enough to be a danger. They took her to a secluded location and raped her. People saw them carry her into their car. No one did anything to stop them.

Was it her fault? No. Yes she did go to an unsafe location with boys she did not know. They took her to another house party where they got her wasted. Which was the last location she remembers being.

Was she behaving properly? No. She was having fun. She was drinking so her inhibitions were lowered. Her ability to think clearly was gone. She agreed to go to the other house party with them. Is it her fault for being raped? No.

Was she wearing anything which was 'sexy'? Yes. Did her clothing encourage the two boys to view her as a 'sex object'? Yes. Was it her fault that she was raped? No.

Did she go to an unsafe location? Yes. Did she take any steps to ensure that she was safer? I do not know. Is it her fault for being raped? No.

What steps could she have taken to reduce the likelihood of being raped by the two boys? She could have had friends who don't drink keep an eye on her. She could have drank one drink then switch to something else. She could have not gone to the party. Is it her fault for being raped? No.

Would she have been raped if she took all reasonable steps to ensure her safety? It is still possible, yet the likelihood of being targeted by the two boys would be lower because there would because she wouldn't be as compliant to their plans. She could have proven to be too aware, or others too aware for her safety, for the two boys to get her to leave with them.

The only way to make sure rape never occurs is to teach those who have the 'mindset' to think in a different way.

One man I spent time dealing with... he came home one night, drunk. It was late. He opened the door to his house and saw his teenage daughter laying on the couch. He then tried to rape her. He never thought of his daughter as a sex object. Yet he was drunk and saw her that way. He was too drunk to think his actions through. His wife and son were also home. The other part of the 'mindset' of rapists is impulsive actions.

He pleaded guilty to his crime. He hates himself. Yet he learned that his crime was attributed mostly from the effects of alcohol. If he wasn't drunk he wouldn't have tried to rape her.

*sigh*

When I say modest, I don't mean a ha jib. I mean making sure that the areas where perverted people look at are covered. *sigh* I am perverted. I need to die

Men don't have to worry about those things, why should we? "Because it increases the chance to get raped", don't worry, I can protect myself. But instead of spending our time and energy talking about "how do girls prevent rape?", I think it would be better to educate guys "how not to rape".
The more we talk about "how not to get raped", the more we focus on that, the less we talk about "how not to rape", the less focus is on that. That's why I at least try to stop people from talking so much about "how not to get raped", not only because the step to "she asked for it, because she didn't do A, B and C" is extremely small.

The best rape prevention is trying to fight rape culture and how ironic it might sound: this also means not putting too much focus on "don't do A, B and C".

How do you prevent people from robbing you in the slums if we don't focus on A, B, and C?

Those are steps to reduce the chance of being raped. Yet it is always a possibility... say you parents' best friend stays over one night.. and rapes you? Not your fault. Yet that is how some gain access to victims.

You are right.. yet all of society needs to be taught... *sigh* may i die?

You're excusing rapists by implying rapists can't help it, will always rape and there's nothing we can do to change the fact that they rape. It's effectively the "not in my backyard" defense.
Rapists aren't some special breed of men, that's the whole problem: in a rape culture, there's a HUGE grey area and A LOT of men move around in that grey area of consent.

Yes, there are some rapists who are also sociopaths, but that's just a small part of all rapists, saying "noooo, not me, not us normal guys, they're the psycho's, only psycho's rape and you can't stop them, they're crazy" is just not correct.
I wasn't raped by a sociopath, I was raped by a boy who -through rape culture- convinced himself that what he was doing was acceptable and that "I would be fine", that it "wasn't a big deal".

Not writing rapists off as psychopathic predators would help a lot, I know it's tough, especially for men, but we can only stop rape when we're deadhonest about these things, about rape culture and about who are rapists.
And that means accepting that every man can potentially rape within the grey area of consent, but that these men aren't all psychopathic predators, they're just brainwashed by patriarchy.
Educating these men about the grey area, about rape culture, about real consent and about healthy relationships/sexuality would really work in my opinion.

It might not stop the most violent, sociopathic rapists out there, but they're a minority, it can possibly stop the majority of rapists: men who are taught unhealthy ideas about sex.
This is why I fight, not because of the sociopaths, but because of the men who think "only no means no", who think "I'm a man, she's woman, sex feels good, let's have sex... especially when she's a "sl*t", who believe "scoring" a lot of "chicks" is cool and masculine and who feel entitled to sex because women look attractive (and they think we're doing that on purpose, just to tease them).

Where did I say rapists can't help themselves. can't stop themselves?

You didn't say it literally, but... "What steps could she have taken to reduce the likelihood of being raped by the two boys? She could have had friends who don't drink keep an eye on her. She could have drank one drink then switch to something else. She could have not gone to the party.", This is all "she, she, she and even more she", where are the boys that raped here in your story?

They deliberately went out to rape a girl.... only way to stop them was for someone else to intervene at that point. They were beyond the controls people place on themselves to prevent themselves from doing bad things.

To prevent them from getting to that point, would require them to learn at an earlier age that sex isn't a big thing and that their peers are wrong about how cool it is to keep a score of how many girls they had sex with. That being raped hurts... more than just the victims.

I said reduce the likelihood of being raped... for there will always be those sociopaths you mentioned around in society... Nothing can eliminate rape other than eliminating the human species.

How about this: we up the rules for self defense and allow women to arm themselves (this is still illegal where I'm from) and focus on educating these boys. Instead of not wearing what we want, not going where we want, not doing what we want and not being who want to be, we simply murder the men who try to rape us? That will deal with that sociopathic minority. Not going to rely on the justice system anymore, just torture our rapists to death.
How about that?

You guys should be freaking lucky we girls aren't as violent, because what I do sounds a lot better to me: zero tolerance, wearing my weapons on my body and defense "by all means" after the first warning. I'm not going to live like a second class citizen because men will rape me if I use the freedom men naturally already have.

I will not be raped again and I will not submit to male terror, my body, my rules. Be glad I want to educate men too, I could call for arms as well. That's the difference between me (a feminist socialist) and radical feminists, I'm at least TRYING not to become militant and help men out too. I prefer them to learn how to not rape women over getting stabbed in the crotch by one of my daggers.

Are we clear now? Thank you.

Does that imply anything about me or the rapists?

When I was 11 or 12 I read David Eddings' The Belgariad Trilogy... in one culture... women are property. They are bought and Sold, with their consent and receive 50% of the agreed upon price, yet they have knives.. just to encourage those men to behave. Their owner is supposed to protect them to, yet those knives are equally valid to be used on the owners.

At that age I thought it would be great if all Girls and Women have knives on them. I think my daughters should have them. Yet the zero tolerance policies would have them expelled in a day.

I know what happens to rape victims... Those novels of his were meant for adults. I have read other novels at that time which were a bit more explicit than his. Stabbing a rapist is good... yet what happens when the rapist takes your knife away? *sigh*

Maybe I do deserve to be killed... to die.

*Legal disclaimer because I'm not sure if this is allowed on EP*: only do this when it's legal where you're from, although I'm personally ignoring the law for my own safety.

@ Alustrial: that's why I wear my weapons on my body, not in a purse or anything. Maybe when your girls are a bit older (how old are they?) you can encourage them to do the same thing? I personally wear bootknives strapped to my ankles, they're very light and small, so you can't find them with frisking unless you're forced to put off your boots.
There are also more ways to arm your body: if you live in a cold place, the same principle with daggers work to put in your sleeves, ready to draw them, but this does turn out when frisked.

I'd say: weapons need education, so keep an eye out for that as a parent too, I had specialized self defense training to fight with knives in a safe way, this might be good for daughters as well. The same for all combat means applies: put focus on self defense and responsibility: NEVER use skills or weapons for reasons of assault.
Also: install a code with your daughters, about when it's okay to defend yourself 'by all means', I personally do this after a first warning, but this might be too extreme for you. I know a lot of people allow force "after the first assault" (so the first hit, butt grab, forced kiss etc.), I personally think this is 'too late'. My own code is to give a clear warning after the first negative contact (be that first assault, rape/violence threat or verbal harrassment etc.) and if this warning doesn't result in a man stepping down, I will draw a dagger and clearly state the consequences of possible actions.

I can understand your reasons, but...

As I told, I am a victim, too. I was just a kid. It all happen about 30 years ago and I am still feeling the embarrassment and remembering the pain. Now, try to understand that the only way to deal with men and, for that part, help your pain is giving up confrontation. I know it is not easy and I know how long the pain can last.

As a man I really do not like to be called a (potential) rapist just because of my sex. It is unfair and cruel. Raping is one of the most coarse and humiliating thing anyone can do. Rapists and -philes are regarded as the absolute worst (in)human beings. If you want your education to be heard, stop accusing in a worst possible way. I think also that you are right in that it could be impossible to predict who will rape. So, avoiding potentially dangerous situations is not only safe but polite to those men, who do not deserve to be called rapists.

Feministic confrontation with men would not heal your wounds. The world is not fair. Everyone of us get mistreated during our lives. And still we are left to carry the burden of getting healed mainly by ourselves. What would be an appropriate compensation for all that you have had to suffer? If you are eternally bitter, even fantazillion dollars is not enough and, on the other hand, no compensation would satisfy you.

There are therapists, psychiatrists, priests, and friends who can help you. But no one or nothing will help you as long as you are angry and bitter. Even your feministic ideas - which are really needed - will be heard only when you try to find some kind of consensus with those you would like to talk to. You have right to be angry, but do not make it holy anger, because it will not hurt anybody but you. Being a feminist is a good thing. They are needed, indeed! Hatred just is not a fruitful reason to be anything. It causes more hate.

I would like to thank Alustrial for his help. I have to ask for your understanding because English is not my native language. I am thinking in totally different kind of language and then translating my thoughts. It is almost certain that there are changes in the nuances of the meanings that I do not understand.

I am not going to continue this any more. At least I think that I have now expressed my good will. I keep asking for sensible behavior, clothing, and words.

@Scar - "I'm not blaming the victim, but... *totally blames victim*."
********************

Exactly. The omnipresent "but...." so prevalent on EP. The bottom line is that this write up posted by Dente is dead on.

@ txava: And I will keep spreading the word about education against patriarchy and rape culture, besides protecting myself with a zero tolerance policy and being open to other women adapting my zero tolerance stance. I'm okay with ending the discussion with you, you think feminism is a good thing and I agree, we can agree to disagree on how to deal with rape prevention. Oh and no worries, English isn't my native language either. :-)

What would you do about the person who raped me? She was 16 or 17.... I was too young to have the vocabulary required to know what was happening... I was an infant. What could have been done to stop her?

...Taking precautions against being raped is what I would call a risk reduction and displacement activity.
You *may* stop the rapist from raping. You may stop the rapist from raping YOU and send him or her after an easier target.
You may not succeed and be raped or be hurt, or be killed. Personally, if someone tries to rape me again, I will do my level best to kill them or permanently injure them.
I'm not going down without a fight, and it'll be ugly.
Something noted here:
http://rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm
Crime dropped in this one town by 89% when everyone was required to keep a gun in their home by city ordinance.
If more women were willing to kill to defend themselves from rape attempts, there might be less attempts.

There will be less rapists to make the attempts.

It's rare that the rapist is caught after the first incidence...

@ Alustrial: you didn't reply to my whole speech about weapons and daughters. :-( Not caring for that or...? I did write it just for you after all. :-)

If a woman is laying on the ground naked around men, with her legs spread apart and her vagina exposed, while playing with herself she may be setting herself up to be raped, but a woman just wearing sexy clothes, flirting, drinking, dancing, kissing, and hugging should NEVER be considered an invitation for rape. That is ABSURD. Also rapists don't just go after women who are sexy. Their desire to rape has various attractions. Some of them like women who are covered from head to toe, senior women, overweight moderately dressed women, women who dress like men, professionally dressed women, women in uniforms of some kind . . . you name it. It rarely has anything to do with a woman looking and acting sexy.

I agree with you at the same time. It comes back to the weapon control situation. Still... I believe it is better to die fighting than to live after being raped. Maybe I am not a good person.

As for the age of my daughters... I.. um.. don't have any. I always wanted to have two of them. I began to pick up names for them when I was still in middle school. My wife would like to have a son. Yet the chance of her getting pregnant, and to have a normal pregnancy without complications isn't good. She's nearly twice my age. Yet, adopting or having foster children is better than having children of your own. Too many children grow up in the system without having anyone who cares about them.

*sigh*

If we can get the victims to view themselves as a person worthy of respect, love, friendship, kindness, and most of all respect, then it would be easier for them to come forward. It's brave to publicly denounce the rapist for what that person is. It's not shame.

Shame is a feeling others force you to have. Guilt is a feeling that you force yourself to have. Shame is wrong. Guilt is wrong when it's not your fault.

It wasn't her fault. Some people can be very trusting. Others can trust their friends a bit too much about other people's characteristics. Of course, that doesn't even include that the rapist doesn't pretend to be a normal human while they set their trap.

*sigh*

I wish there was a way for people to encouraged the abused to denounce their abusers... with out resorting to 'if you don't tell the police, he could rape another person' argument. I felt a lot of anger and hatred because I never spoke up... She probably did rape other children. It would be my fault. Bad logic, yet my father was quite clear when he said everything about my situation was my fault and that I put myself in my position; no one else did.

Consa - yes things like you describe have happened. And yes we should be more fearful and conscientious than most men have to be to protect ourselves from being abused and raped.

I guess many of us women (not just feminists) continue to hope that one day we can be like men and feel more free to dress and act as we wish without fearing that if we dress and act certain ways, and go off with a man we trust alone we may be raped. Are men afraid in that way? None that I know are.

There have always been men like the one you described above who are charismatic and trick a woman into trusting them so they can then seriously damage her in one way or another. A perfect example is Ted Bundy. As quoted from Wikipedia "Bundy was regarded as handsome and charismatic by his young female victims, traits he exploited in winning their trust. He typically approached them in public places, feigning an injury or disability, or impersonating an authority figure, before overpowering and assaulting them at a more secluded location. . . On a few occasions he simply broke into dwellings in the dead of night and bludgeoned victims as they slept."

The women he raped and killed very often were not dressing or acting sexy. They were just naive and as a result he was capable of winning their trust so that he could then kidnap, rape, and kill them. The only thing many of them did wrong was trust Bundy and as a result fail to "take responsibility for their safety" by refusing to let him engage with them alone. Of course that was not the case with the women whose homes he broke into at night and bludgeoned. The only thing they were not responsible for was failing to have an alarm system in their homes, bars on their doors and windows to help prevent entry, and going to sleep. Have you heard of any women who are the equivalent of Ted Bundy and who have done the things to men that he did to women? I never have. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/index.html = lots and lots of men.

Who's Consa?

I hate myself. I'm male. Men are evil. peopl are evil... could we just die?

Sure! Freedom of choice and all that. Lots of effective methods out there, too!

@ Alustrial: I wouldn't feel that way if I were you... if you know for a fact you're different than these men (not just rapist, also misogynists, although a lot of them are rapists too), why not take back your manhood from these pigs? A respectful man is special, exclusive and something you should be proud of.
These people aren't men, they're pigs... like the video you posted said: "REAL men respect women".

If you hate being male for the reasons Unsick above stated (testosterone with sex drive): there are solutions for that. Not chemical castration (most doctors aren't willing to do that), but there are some meds out there with a killer effect on one's libido.
But that's up to you, I'm just guessing here.

Already on chemical castration... There are a couple of other meds I have used to the same effect...progesterone for example.. I hated those... gained two-thirds of my weight in 6 months... *sigh* sometimes dying looks like a win-win-lose solution. :/

@ Alustrial: I hope that's all under the supervision of a doctor? Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of deweaponizing males who can't handle the responsibility, but I do care about said males' health.

Yes. Had to be doctor approved. Or the financial help to pay for the meds wouldn't be available.

I learned to handle the responsibility... sex is bad/wrong and **** is evil... developed that by the time I was 13...

Sex isn't bad or wrong per se, only how a lot of people deal with sex. Lovemaking is a good thing, "banging chicks" isn't, in my opinion.

I know... yet to prevent myself from 'banging hicks' at an age younger than 13... I had to prevent myself from wanting to... which is why sex causes me a lot of distress...And being male... meant I was able to hear a lot of the boys talk... how it would be great to have sex... it;s... crazy. I'm insane. Clinically. *sigh* Depressed for over 15 years... Hard to smile these days and these topics... aren't helping but... sexual offending is a topic I studied... It's something I know. I only commit on things I Know about. Or, at times when I am wrong, on things I think I know.

Makes sense, well, it's your body and your life and I think it's positive that you took responsibility this way. I wish more men would take meds like those, so bravo to you sir. :-)

Thank you. Eventually... with my wife I'll be able to deal with the sexual demons. I really want to kill the babysitter.... She was the only female who harmed me... after her.. it was all males... which is why I am a bit anti-male.

I know how that feels. Female perps are super rare, while in all my life, I've been close to only 3 or 4 males who weren't scumbags (literally: from ALL men I've ever encountered, not just romantically/sexually). It seems like female rapists are a needle in a haystack (and you were just very unlucky), while male ones are pretty much more rule than exception.

Female offenders, like a good portion of male offenders, usually start making victims in the teen years. Since females aren't the stereotypical offender, that gives them a better access to privacy with their victims. So, a larger number of female offenders than males go unreported.

It's sad. Very sad. People need to instill the ethics of a respectable person in their kids before they hit puberty. As well as to inform them that there are those out there who will harm them if given a chance. *sigh*

Oops. I mistaked Truthbetold for consa because they have the same avi and I don't think I have ever seen Truthbetold comment before, but consa does regularly.

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That. Is SO true. All that these disgusting perverts have in mind is rape, boobs, *** and all that other stuff. They have no respect for women, and if I was a guy, I would never rape a girl. I hope every raper gets hanged, and dies in hell, because EVERY women should be RESPECTED. I have never been raped, and I'm not looking foward to!

Never been raped? Lucky! Still 25% chance it happens anyway though.

Yes, that was cynical, I'm having a rough morning...

all men have the mind set of rape

Why do you say that?

Because it's true? Remember my test about 'minset of a rapist'? Having the mindset of a rapist doesn't mean they'll actually rape, just that they think like a rapist.
This has been tested more btw: mixing up quotes from convicted serial rapists with quotes from men's magazines, most test subjects mixed up the words of the rapists with words of "normal men".
They just can't tell the difference, why? Because they have the mind of a rapist, but (maybe) not the conscience of a rapist.

Rape in essence is about 'getting what you want', in general, men have the desire to get what they want regardless of how the woman (or other man or little kid) feels about it.
Consent is a thing to 'get, to make it legal', their desire isn't connected to the other person's willingness.
While (most) women do have this requirement, calling BS? Last time I checked, I was a human woman... and I have this. I deem it impossible for me to be intimate with someone without active, enthusiastic consent.
The rapist mind can be educated though: we can teach those men that consent isn't something you should "try to get, by all means, if you want sex" or worse: "not important, I'm entitled to sex", but that active, enthusiastic consent is a worthy reward.
Don't rape, don't blur the lines of consent, be patient and invest: true consensual sex is way more pleasing than a girl just laying there.

We're very far from this though, I'd say: the large majority of men are the "consent is something you need to get, by all means, only no = no" type, rape culture (including p0rn) make sure things stay this way.

I rather assumed a number of men were like me...it's fun only if the partner is also having fun.

Maybe a few. :-) Those are the men I consider "potential partners".

Interesting premise. I note that this line of thinking is based on the examples provided of actual acts of sexual violence by men against women and kids. Based on your logic then evidence of women who commit acts of sexual violence against boys and girls would support the idea that women also have a predisposition towards committing rape. It makes this characteristic a potential of either gender. Happy to discuss.

You're not on track here LaoTzu, as you say "actual acts of sexual violence", while we're discussing the mindset of rape, wich isn't the same.
I don't want to remind you of the statistics on rape, but I think I have to: 99% of rapists are male, 1% of rapists is female, claiming "some men rape, some women rape" would be unfair to say the least.
No, females do not have a predisposition towards committing rape, they only make up 1% of perps in cases of sexual abuse, while males do 99%.
Besides: all this isn't even relevant, as the subject is the mindset of rape, I think I just said that "thinking like a rapist" and "acting like a rapist" are 2 different things.
If you really HAVE to look at acts (seriously, that would be a handicap in this discussion, I suggest if you're all about acts and not about thoughts, you stop taking part in this discussion), we're not looking at 'rape culture approved rapes' anyway.
We're looking at 'blurring the lines of consent' here, in a rape culture that's considered "healthy male sexuality", in reality, it's a danger for women (and some gay men).
This alinea is just there to tell you you're wrong, anything you will say about acts (of sexual abuse) is going to be ignored by me, as it would be offtopic.

Most women don't have that mindset of rape either (of course, there are always exceptions), while nearly all men do, women's sexuality is just different, just like women's bodies and brains.
So no, this line of thinking is not based on examples provided of actual acts of sexual violence by men against women (and kids).
This line of thinking is based on male sexuality and male thought patterns, wich not only is visible in cases of (sexual) violence, but in lots of things: from behavior to ethics and from sexuality to rape culture.
Tests like the "serial rapists &amp; men's magazines test" are an example of what displays those thought patterns.

Again, consider that you are using concrete examples to support a supposition about a 'mindset'. You readily flag culture as a supporting element and perhaps this is a good place to start. Culture and society play crucial roles in shaping behavior or even what is considered acceptable (your mind set construct). cultural mores are not universal. There are matriachal cultures albeit much fewer now since colonization and their rules and norms are different. It would be a shame to simply find an easy one size fits all premise when more detailed research will show many exceptions.

Another thing about your stats - the US does not make such comparisons for sexual offences. They are counted and treated differently. In absolute terms, female sexual offenders are increasing in number. Also increasing alongside are female to female and female to male violence and female risk taking behavior. Social researchers are forecasting a continued increase in these areas, partly because there is better and more reporting and partly because of changing societal and cultural norms. Would this then mean that in fifteen to twenty years, you'd say that females too have a mindset predisposed towards rape?

...Women do sexually abuse. I have the opinion that they do it less.
However, making any statement about how big the problem is is hampered by the following factors:
1. Men are much less likely to report it.
2. If a man is forced into vaginal coitus with a woman, he is not described as having been raped. For instance, in order to "rape" a man by the new definition of rape in the US, the woman has to shove something into an orifice.
3.There doesn't seem to be a whole heck of a lot of research into female-on-male sexual assault.

...Many people believe a man can't be forced into heterosexual coitus.
People do not often realize that arousal is an involuntary response.

"Having the mindset of a rapist doesn't mean they'll actually rape, just that they think like a rapist." Rape is an act. Someone who doesn't do that act is not a rapist. Implying that we all would be if we could get away with it is ridiculous, offensive, and cheapens the crime itself ("oh I couldn't help it, you know what it's like being a guy..."). If you want to say that there's a harmful culture of sexual entitlement, or of sex-as-commodity, then say that -- saying "all men have the mindset of rape" is a transparently inflammatory way to phrase that viewpoint that looks to my cynical eyes like it was deliberately cooked up to aggravate men. You don't get to equate me to a sexual criminal solely on the basis of my gender.

@ winstonwelles: wait, what? You're using your time and energy to make activists rephrase their words instead of changing that culture of sex-entitlement, sex-as-commodity (and to add, my own words: women as inferior objects + a lot more) that we call rape culture?
You can do that of course, although I'm not going to change my words (especially when your suggestion is a whole sentence instead of 1 word, I'm trying to use "potential rapists", but every time I read or hear these men talk, I get convinced of "rapist" instead of "potential rapist).

"The mindset of a rapist" isn't 100% gender (or sex for that matter, technically we should say sex here), so no, I'm not equating on the basis of your gender (or sex) solely.
I'm equating on the basis of your sex/gender (maybe both, to think of it) + social conditioning.
Yes, I think testosterone + (heterosexual) men's sexuality is a natural impulse that says "I want sex with attractive woman and I want it a lot and with many attractive young women... I really want to do that now", but the social conditioning is like the fuel on this flame, while we could also -let's say- make it into a useful lamp instead of a raging bonfire.
It's not bad to like sex, a lot of women like sex too, even though our sexuality gets oppressed too (penetration doesn't result in ****** in at least 75% of women, education and p0rnography almost never explains female sexuality etc. etc.).
Please understand that I'm not targetting the male gender (I know, it seems this way because it's still 1-dimensional communication, just words), if I would, I'd never mention the word rape culture.
Rape culture is that gasoline on the little flame that creates the 'mindset of a rapist', it's why I talk about teaching men not to rape, to make their mindset change.
We could make that flame called male sexdrive into a lamp, useful and even beautiful and romantic. To teach: you are not The Man when you "use a lot of girls, score them, those sexy looking objects, 10 pieces of *** a week", you are The Man when you can satisfy a woman, that she begs for more of you, when you are a gentleman inside and outside of the bedroom. Quality instead of quantity.

I'm trying to be clear in my language, but that's not always easy, I hope you understand where I'm coming from a bit better now? :-)
Men can be in harmony with women, they have assets we often lack (like we have assets men often don't have too), but that should be a balance of 50/50, not 100% man and a 0% enslavement of women, it's still 100%, but it sure is no harmony.

I see your point about the unhealthy way men are encouraged to view sex, and how that could lead certain unhealthy people to take it to its logical extreme as an endorsement of rape. Really, everything you said in that post immediately above is perfectly reasonable. And yet the one I first responded to made my blood boil, because it sounded like an accusation that all men really want to be rapists. I guarantee you plenty of men and women who would otherwise be happy to agree with your opinion would see a sentence like "all men have the mindset of rape", roll their eyes and stop reading. I only responded out of anger. When people see an emotively-worded sentence like that, their first instinct is not "I must ask this person dispassionately for a definition of terms in case this is all a misunderstanding", it's to feel alienated and go on the defensive. I see now that that wasn't your intention (and if it had been, I would have been a fool for rising to the bait), but it's something to be cautious of.

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Tell this to anti-feminists

I would but they hide behind the block button !

I bet anti-feminists would create a counter-text about how women's natural state is "*****"... it's a total stand-off.

True, Scar, it is an anti-feminist "all women are ****** except me" standpoint

That's a good point Damsel.... that's pretty much the mindset, and it's not always hidden

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I do think a most men's natural state is 'rapist'.

Somewhere else on EP I explained a test for this: show a heterosexual man a naked, beautiful young woman.
Tell him "she doesn't feel like having sex with you" and then ask him: "but would YOU like to have sex with her now?".
If his direct answer is something along the lines of "yes, I'd love to **** her", his state is "rapist", if he answers directly with something along the lines of "no, because she doesn't want sex with me, I would only want it if she wants it too", his natural state is non-rapist.

Why? Because the "yes"-option disregards her consent in his wish to have sex with her, while the "no"-option needs her consent in order to wish for sex with her.

And a little control factor: I'm a woman myself, I can find both men and women attractive and my instant answer, without even thinking, is "no, not if he/she isn't into me", for both men and women, no matter how hot or no matter how naked.
If I can be a non-rapist, why can't these men be non-rapists as well?

Fair points.

I guess two points of slight contention,

Wanting to do something isn't the same as doing it... Wanting to have sex with someone but, refraining from doing so because the other person does not want to is IMO the opposite frame of mind than rapist.

Also, without conceding your point that " If his direct answer is something along the lines of "yes, I'd love to **** her", his state is "rapist" ... I would say the fact that many people would say yes is not a reflection of a NATURAL state but, a state of rape culture, which has very thoroughly deluged and distorted the natural state of almost all sexual desire and behavior.

Does it really matter if it's rape culture or natural?
At this point I think both are equally as hard to get rid of... So for the sake of point-proving, that one is nearly irrelevant.
Makes me sad though, to realise that.

Rapist mind vs. non-rapist mind is more of a theoretical discussion, it's a basic on wich we can teach men not to rape.
It's not like I want to throw every man with the "yes! I'd love to **** her!" answer in jail, I want to teach them to add that link of thought, to correct those rapey thoughts.
Because rape culture seems to allow men to follow different thought patterns, to think "no, she doesn't want sex with me, so that's a no" instead of "I'd love to! but she doesn't let me have it :-( poor me, I want it so badly, how can I get it anyway?".
There's nothing wrong with having bad thoughts (we all have them, I have them a lot too, mostly about genital-amputation or facial mutilation), as long as we teach ourselves (or each other) to correct those thoughts on the spot.
That's my whole point, also very functional against the "but that's how men are biologically! you can't deny them sex when they're horny, they're healthy men with unstoppable urges!" argument.

To me there is a difference in natural state vs culturally influenced state.

Feminism deals a lot in rejection of "materialism" of gender and sexuality, by which it is meant that while 'sex designation' is materialistic (meaning purely genetic) gender, sexuality, and self is decidedly not materialistic, it is influenced both by nature and nurture.

To me if you begin to believe rapist is a natural state of mind you take away the responsibility and possibility of them being and doing better.

I think the best antidote to rape culture is to reframe consent as sexy and in achieving consent through complete free will ... Releasing people from shame in regards to anything done in full consent. And teaching people consent is defined as 'enthusiastic and given with full knowledge'.

Scar.. Dante said it best.. I would only add that you are a ******* moron.

Coppy no! That's not so...scar had some good points and had solutions on how to solve the issue ... Now stop being all juicy and give her credit she certainly isn't a moron.

Someone's offended because he has a penis Copper? Get over yourself, I'm not the enemy here.
I even admitted that I'm not concerned with the "natural vs. rape culture" thing, but purely with the thought patterns of horny men.
It doesn't matter who came first, the chicken or the egg, it matters that the you can have a hard boiled egg for breakfast. A.k.a. that men stop raping women.

Besides: moron you say? That's pretty daring, questioning someone's intelligence or sense of judgement while I'm the one who posted an in-depth analysis and you just typed 1 line agreeing with someone else's views like a sheep.

We're all thinking about that Indian bus rape in Delhi, where rape really is a laughing matter.

The best way to deal with rape is to prosecute it hard and have a fitting punishment, such as public (maybe even televised) caning. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and I'm sure most rapists would think twice about raping if they thought that might happen

I don't think the majority of men are natural rapists, or even culturally rapists.
I just think the minority that are rapists manage to rack up victims.

I certainly think that a pack instinct of disrespect, when the law studiously turns a blind eye to it, racks up victims

Lol scar.. yes you know me well. You are right about me.. I am indeed a one line spewing sheep. Baaaaaaaaaahhhh...

Conceptual was offended by my statement regarding rape culture
"a state of rape culture, which has very thoroughly deluged and distorted the natural state of almost all sexual desire and behavior."

So as there is no confusion, I am not talking about "rough sex".
In fact, I am not talking about sex, since rape isn't the same thing as sex.
To me natural sexuality does not eroticize or favor forced copulation. Natural sexuality does not involve using one's reproductive organs as weapons. Natural sexuality does not involve using one's genitals to punish another. Natural sexuality does not shame one sex for the same behaviors it praises in the other sexes. IMO natural sexuality has both partners accepting equally in both participation and in responsibility. Hopefully that clears up any confusion.

"Wanting to do something isn't the same as doing it..." *Nods*
If wanting to do something was the same as doing it, you could find where I'd been by the trail of dead bodies...

I'm glad we don't have a "murder culture" (like a rape culture), although I bet it would fix our current overpopulation problem in the world. ;-p

Your thought experiment is fundamentally flawed. You are asking them "Do you want to have sex with her" and sex, by definition, is consensual. If it is not consensual than we don't use the word sex; We use the word rape. So if a male sees a hot girl and says "I'd totally **** her" that's not a rapist sentiment. It's only saying that woman has met his physical requirements (and that may be the only requirements that person has) and nothing more. To try and take the naturally high and physically orientated male libido and transform that into something inherently rape-like via poorly thought out scenarios and word choice is insane and sexist.

I disagree that men's natural state is "rapist". If it were, most men would have raped. Certainly, men have a need for sex (as do women), and they have people with whom they would love to have sex. A man is a rapist if he takes those people by force, against their will, not if he wants to have sex with them. Just my two cents.

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